In episode 34 of Mission: Impact, Carol, her guest, Doug Spencer talked about:
Douglas Spencer is president of Spencer Brenneman, LLC, which helps mission-driven organizations reframe their focus and remaster their messages to thrive in any environment. In 2021, Douglas launched the podcast, Messaging on a Mission. In it he talks to leaders of nonprofits, social enterprises, associations about their journeys and the messages they’re using to thrive. He is also the author of Do They Care? The one question all brands should ask themselves, continually, a book that shows leaders how they can create meaningful connections with everyone important to their organization's success.
Carol Hamilton: My guest today on Mission Impact is Doug Spencer. Doug and I talk messaging for nonprofits. Why it is so much more than branding and branding is so much more than just a logo, and why it is so important to help everyone in your nonprofit get on board with a clear message that everyone can understand. Welcome to Mission Impact, the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I am Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant.
Welcome Doug. It's great to have you on the pod.
Doug Spencer: I am thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.
Carol: So I like to start with asking the question of what drew you to the work that you do. What, what motivates you and what would you describe as your why?
Doug: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's see. It's convoluted. It's not as easy as, oh, I woke up one morning when I was a child and I knew that I had to do A, B or C. So, I will start there. My parents were volunteers, they just volunteered at different organizations. And so they set a really good example for me, that way. And, I did that throughout high school and college. And after that, I've always been a volunteer, at least in organizations that I cared about. I did work in nonprofits for awhile, but then I got sucked into the for-profit sector and worked there for many years and, but continue to continue to volunteer. I served on the board of directors of a hundred million dollar health center. And, even was its board chair for a while. So I continued doing that, but after a while I left my corporate job, I started working on my own, doing branding. And, really it was last year in the heart of the pandemic where I took a step back and thought. All right. What am I doing? What I really want to do. And it was then that we made a shift to focus exclusively on mission driven organizations. So mostly not-for-profits, but also, social enterprises, the organizations that are trying to. Solve some sort of societal challenge, and, and, and are focused on doing that. There's the environment. There's education there's it's there, there's some really great folks doing some great work in pretty much all, all areas. And so, yeah, that's why I've shifted to mission-driven organizations. There's a lot of things I can't do, but, such as I can't, take care of kids who have been abused. I can't work in biotech. I can't do a lot of things, but I can help them. I can help the people who do. I can help them talk about their work and get their message out there so that more people join them on their mission.
Carol: It doesn't, it doesn't do anyone any good if, it's it's, the organization is hidden and no one knows the good work that they're doing. It's interesting. I'm thinking about my career and I've been in the sector for most of my career and, if you had talked to an organization about branding, when I first started, it was a dirty word. Branding, marketing, all of those things, were, oh, that's what, that's what those for-profit people do. I think that's changed a lot in the number of years that I've been in the sector. but still, it can be. Somewhat neglected or siloed and the fundraising arm or the marketing arm, the communications arm of the organization. Why would you say that it's really important for organizations to get, get those messages, get, get those messages is really integrated through the whole organization.
Doug: Sure. Well, there's many reasons for that. one of which is consistency in order for any message to take hold. And when I think of branding, by the way, I really think of strategic messaging. People sometimes think of a logo when they think branding, but that's just one tiny element of it. So it's really about how you think about your organization, how you think about the relationships you have with all the people. All the people most important to your success. And then how do you talk to them? And when I say all the people important to your success, that's where I think your portion's going. that starts with employees. I wrote a little book a few years ago about branding and the first chapter is all about employees, because if your employees don't understand what you're really about, if they can't talk about it in a way that gets other people excited, then. Wow. You're walking away from a whole lot of great connections, a whole lot of great energy, a whole lot of great information because communication is two ways. But, but, so, so it's important that everybody understands the message for consistency. But also, so they can do their jobs better so they can feel more connected to the organization. So that if you're a volunteer, you can't stop talking about it. And more importantly, you can't stop talking about it correctly. And if you don't have that focus on messaging in the very beginning, people are going to go out, go out, about in their daily lives. And they're going to say whatever they think is right. And sometimes it is, but a lot of the times it's not. So that's why messaging is so important that everyone has to understand it and everyone has to feel it. They have to really feel it and get excited about it.
Carol: Yeah. Oftentimes you think about board members or board members are, are really, encouraged to be ambassadors for the organization, but you make a great point about all those people who are working there. All the folks who are volunteering, it may not be at the board level. It may be in a lot of different aspects of the organization. but any of those folks, any of those stakeholders only kind of, yeah. It sees the elephant from whatever position they're in. Right. So they may just get a bit of the puzzle and not the whole thing. How do you help organizations go about that and get everyone on message?
Doug: Well, the first, the first way to do that is involve them, involve everyone in the development of the message or if it's not development and it, at least it's the. fine tuning or validate or validation of the message. So we have a process that is really research heavy. We focus a lot on research, both qualitative and quantitative, and you bring people into that process to make them feel heard because they do need to be heard. And you're, if you don't. Get input from all the people most important to you, six successes then, wow. You're not doing your job, right? not, I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's just the way it is. You've got to get everyone involved and just that first step does help build that momentum and build that excitement. And then the end product, ideally. We'll have some reflection of what all of those folks have said and input and input, obviously you're not going to just automatically do or say whatever everybody says, but it's, it's the totality of everything they say. So if you do it right, they're going to see a little bit of themselves in there. They're going to see a little bit about the part of the organization that, that they, no. when I was working in the for-profit sector and that's the other reason just, not to be completely stream of consciousness, but that's the other reason that I like what I'm doing now, because when I was working in the for-profit sector, I got a ton of great experience that the nonprofit sector isn't seen there's approaches in this way, just think about that really can benefit the non-profit sector. So I'm, I'm excited to share that where it's appropriate for other organizations, but where I was going before I interrupted myself, right. Where it was, where I was going was that I had a client when I was working with for-profit companies. And he said to me, if I asked every one of my partners, what we do. Every one of them would come up with a different description. And I worked with Harvard medical school and one of their divisions and their executive director had the exact same problem. All the leaders of her. Programs would only talk about the entirety in the perspective of what they did for it, never in how that all adds up to be the organization's true message. So if you get people involved and get them to see how they connect to the greater picture, the greater mission, then they're going to be all that much more excited to be part of it.
Carol: And that that process of research has a very similar to, when you were starting out with a strategic plan. And, the other thing that that brings to mind is that. There's the input process and coming to some conclusion around what are your strategic messages, but through that process, you're also shifting people's perspective and almost going through an education process with them as they talk to other people in the organization and see, see the other sides of things. And then how does it, as you're saying, add up to the total?
Doug: Right. Right. And, and that totality that if you want to call it your mission, you want to call it your why statement, whatever you want to call it, that brings people together and that can actually help, come to life in many other ways. So for example, sometimes there's a lot less bickering in an organization because everyone understands, okay, what they're really there to accomplish. They may all have different approaches to get the organization. There are more different contributions. But they all agree on the end goal and a lot of organizations aren't operating with that. They're just operating little silos, because they think it's more efficient or it's just really, it's just really icky to have to talk to somebody and, and really hear them out and feel what they're saying. And when you just want to focus on your own stuff, but, yeah, it's the mission. And, given the name of your podcast, mission impact, it's got to be the mission, it's gotta be what drives you and your mission’s gotta be what drives your message too.
Carol: So oftentimes, an organization's messaging doesn't keep up with how they've evolved. why don't you say this happens and, and how, how can you kind of, what, how can, what can organizations do to make sure that those two things match.
Doug: Oh, gosh. Yeah. This is something that everybody struggles with from time to time. And there are three main reasons. I see why organizations miss messages that fall out of line. The first is we forget what we know that nobody else knows, and we do our jobs day in and day out. We live, breathe them. Think about them, wake up in the middle of night, thinking about them. And that's what makes us really good at it. But what we all do. Forget that not everybody has that level of detail. And so sometimes we go about talking about what we do as if we're explaining a Netflix show, season three, episode 12, to someone who's only seen season one, episode two.
And so, we forget what we know and nobody else does. So that's the first one. The second one is that we all have to change a little bit here and there. I mean, life comes at us and throws us things that we have to adapt to, global pandemic, anyone, so a little change here and a little change. There is probably not that bad and something you need to do, but your message probably doesn't change a lot. Right. And then the third reason I see is what I call the squeaky wheel syndrome, especially with organizations that are lean and are running, all hands on deck. These squeaky wheels come up and you have to pay attention to them, but sometimes it's at the expense of the entire machine. So what that leads to is over time, sometimes convoluted. confusing and just basically inaccurate message because you've been going slightly different direction, all of a sudden, and then bam, your message hasn't changed and it's still pointing backwards. So those are the three reasons. I think that the organization's message gets out of sync here.
Carol: Yeah. And that makes sense. And as you're talking about those different silos of people, not knowing if they've forgotten what they're doing. So in the details of, episode 22, season three, and they forget the whole long storyline, it seems to me that processes like you lead groups through and, and the work that I do where we're there doing strategic planning and kind of, again, always taking a step back, bringing a larger group of people. Cross-functional groups of people together to think through these things. It helps people reconnect with the why of the organization, whether it's through messaging, whether it's through setting priorities. yeah. It helps them get a better understanding of what everybody does in an organization, oftentimes I'll have board members who've just started and they think, well, I can't contribute anything to this strategic planning process or a messaging process, but they do contribute something and that. One, they're bringing a new perspective and to the whole process they're going to, they're going to be so much further up to speed on the organization than if they had gone to an equivalent number of board meetings. So there's, there's all sorts of other benefits from these processes than just the product at the end. Right? The ripple effects in the organization.
Doug: Right. And one of the things that I think is one of those benefits is focus. So when you step back and really think about your messaging framework, what are the things that we are known for, or want to be known for? What are the things that we contribute to the world that nobody else does exactly the same way? And if you come up with three to four of those, and a new idea comes along, someone says, oh, we should totally do this. Or totally do like adopt a highway program like we do, but for, for, but for rabbits, then you say, okay, well, does that fit into any of the predetermined categories of what we've claimed we do best? And if it doesn't, then you don't do it. And that helps. That helps you stay focused. So you put a line in the sand and say, okay, this is who we are. This is what we do. This is how we talk about it. And anything else. You just have to politely say, sorry, we can't do that. Or, an obviously better option would be to point them to someone who does, not just leave them, leave them hanging, but help them somehow. But don't take that on if it's not who you are.
Carol: So what are some ways that organizations, what are some steps that they can take to get clear about their messaging?
Doug: Yeah. First is, as I alluded to earlier, to do some research. You got to ask questions, you gotta ask questions. All the people who are important to your success. Again, your employees, your volunteers, the people you serve, the people who fund you, the people who used to be on your board and are on your board, or, obviously not everyone, but you have to have a reputation or a representation from everybody that has some sort of a stake or something. A point of view that has value. You have to ask the questions and some of them have to be tough, you know? Do you think, do you have confidence in the executive director? Do you think the organization is prepared to meet the needs of the community in five years? do you think they do the work better than, and then list in some other organizations? So you have to do that work. You have to understand. And the other thing that a lot of organizations don't do that I think is really important is. Take a look at their competitors. And when I say competitors, I know a lot of people go competitors though. We don't have those that's for profit, but no you're competing for the time, talent and treasures of a whole lot of other folks. So, if who else, who else is going to. foundation and applying for the same grant you are, who else is looking for individual donors in say the art space, if that's where you're in or social justice space. So that's where you're in. So you've got to look at what they're doing, what they're saying, and then find a way to authentically position yourselves relevant or relative rather to those other voices, because those voices are out there and you are competing with them before people's time, talent.
Carol: Yeah. And I think people only think about competitors as those direct ones. So an arts organization to an arts organization. And, but if you're a local, a local organization, you're competing with all the organizations that are trying to get donor donations from local folks. So sometimes you have to think kind of, there may not be some, someone who does exactly what you do in your locality, but your, that competition may be maybe slightly.
Doug: Right. And it goes back to your episode, it goes back to thinking about those people who are most important to your success. You got to get in their heads, who is it that they work with? So if you are talking to corporate foundations or you are talking to some sort of a major donor, who else are they supporting? You've got to get a sense of where their attention spans are. Pointing and then thinking about how you fit into that. And it's gotta be authentic as I, as I suggest, is it can't you just can't, you can't be that car salesman. That is all things to all people. You've got to find your authentic voice and speak that in a way that connects with those people in a way that everyone else doesn't.
Carol: So what gets in the way?
Doug: What gets in the way? Well, like I said, just the day-to-day work, people are busy, especially at not-for-profits because they tend to have very lean staffs and sometimes they tend to not sometimes, and they tend to work with some, some really life and death situations. And so if you have to. Getting people into, housing for the, for the night versus, having a conversation with people that might donate, it's, you, you gotta, you gotta balance. And so the day to day really gets in trouble, gets you in trouble sometimes, but you've got to find that balance. That's just part of the job. I had a boss that used to, she used to always say to us, put on your big boy pants and do it. And, Gender aside. I just liked the image of that. But, anyway, that's part of the job and you've gotta stay. You gotta, you gotta do everything. unfortunately, so, just the day to day really does it. The other thing is it's not. Fun necessarily the pre-work, it's almost like some people have fashioned it like going into therapy and who wants to do that? and I, people joke that I'm some, sometimes I'm a therapist, which I am so not because I'm so not qualified, but I asked a lot of questions and I listened. So, I guess there is a parallel. But it's not always fun to really do that soul searching, even if it's not about you personally, but it's about the organization that you love and breathe that you are, it's so important to you. That soul searching can be uncomfortable. And then of course, change is uncomfortable too, for a lot of people, if they don't know. If they're not initiating it like you and I have had conversations and you brought up a great point that a change is great for the people who are initiating it. It's everybody else that gets, gets a little weirded out about it. So, those are some of the reasons, those are some of the things that get in the way. I think of people staying on top of their message and really embracing it and using it as a way to further their work.
Carol: And I love your point about, especially at organizations that are in direct service where, whether they get food to people or housing or all the things, that day, the immediate needs that are right on their doorstep, they need to deal with them. And I guess, as an and other organizations, That are working on issues that can feel like that too, even though they may not have the one person at their doorstep. and yeah, if you can take the perspective of. We're going to do a better job of serving all those people. If we're able to connect with other people who will support us, and, and not have it be a competitive, a competitive thing within the organization of, of competing priorities to say that, no, we need to do both because, that little bit of time that we're taking or that amount of time that we're taking to get clear about all these things is going to serve us in the long run. It may be that. See that, that immediate gratification of helping somebody right there. But over time, it will, it will help them help a greater number of people.
Doug: Okay. It's that, it's another variation on that, that classic, river, metaphor, right. If you're busy pulling people out of the river. One after another is to keep them from drowning. You don't have time to go upstream, downstream, upstream, and figure out why these people are getting in the river in the first place. So it's just another version of that, of that middle.
Carol: Absolutely. So on every episode, I like to play a game where I ask one random icebreaker question. So one for you is what is something you think everybody should do at least in their lives?
Doug: Oh gosh, that's easy. And I say this all the time and that is. Get into some therapy, talk to a therapist. Oh my God, you have no, you don't, you don't. And nor should you be in therapy forever in my humble opinion, but again, what do I know? But, oh my gosh, our world is so complicated and the pressures that we put ourselves in, the world changes so fast and our parents always do the best they can, but you know what. That doesn't mean that everything was right. So you get to talk to somebody else once in a while, at least once and just help them, help them, help them, help you sort things out in your head, so that you can get a better grip on how to be your best self and how to live your best.
Carol: absolutely. I've often joked with my daughter. I was like, well, I'm just, I'm just helping out your future therapist. Well, what are you excited about? What's coming up next for you and emerging in your work.
Doug: Yeah, what's exciting. Well, I'm just excited, excited rather that we are very slowly, more slowly than we should, but more slowly getting a hold of the pandemic and starting to move forward and at least starting to feel more of a comfort level with it. So I think, so we're talking now in August. I don't know when you're going to when this will air, but in August we're I think we're, you've got the Delta variant going on, but I think that people are. Racing themselves for another fall or winter, but it's not going to be as. Awful as it had been. And so I'm looking forward to ideally not having that happen, but if, even if it does, I think it's going to be better than 2020, but I do see the world opening up. I'm really excited. I know this is probably inappropriate to go, get all political, but I'm really excited to see what's going to happen with the infrastructure bill that seems to be going on. I think there's some real, incredible opportunities that are going to come from that. And so I'm really eager to see what this is. Has, and how that benefits, the people that are doing the work that we support. Right? Cause it's not in a vacuthe infrastructure, isn't just something that's over there. The infrastructure is something that impacts everybody and how they do their jobs and how they service the people they serve and how, and the environment is a perfect example. so I'm really excited about that. And, am, in sending positive vibes to Washington that they don't screw it up and that it actually happens.
Carol: Absolutely. It's certainly long overdue. All right. Well, thank you so much. It was great having you on the podcast.
Doug: This is fun. I'll we should do it again. And you've been on mine and I appreciate your time on my podcast and, yeah, happy to do it anytime. All right. Thanks a lot. Thank you.
Carol: I appreciated what Doug said about stepping back and help people understand the bigger picture of the story of your nonprofit. It is too easy to start with all the details – as he says – assuming your audience is in the middle of the season that you have been bringing with you, instead of setting the scene and giving the big headline – the tagline that folks will be able to remember. Not getting lost in the weeds and the details. And how to connect with what the person you are speaking with cares about. Not to fundamentally change your mission – but to find that point of connection to help pull that person in and help them relate to what you are describing. Getting into their shoes and seeing it from their perspective. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Doug as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Nora Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as April Koester of 100 Ninjas for her production support. If you enjoyed the episode I would greatly appreciate it if you would share it with a colleague or friend. Send them a link to the episode - We appreciate you helping us get the word out.
In episode 33 of Mission: Impact, Carol, her cohost, Peter Cruz, and their guest, Stephen Graves discuss diversity equity and inclusion in the health care sector. This episode is a release of a podcast Carol planned to start with her son-in-law and has many transferrable ideas and concepts to the nonprofit sector. We talk about:
Guest bio: Stephen Graves
Born in South Carolina and raised in the black Baptist church, Stephen had an insatiable curiosity to understand the South’s nuanced history related to race, his place in that story as a black man, and how the Christian faith could be used as a tool to heal or a weapon to hurt. This curiosity set him on a personal exploration, which turned into a professional journey as he pursued and earned a Master in Health Administration from the Medical University of South Carolina. Throughout his career in healthcare and in diversity, equity and inclusion, he has led initiatives centered on addressing health disparities, improving language access, and increasing cultural humility among teams. He has been fortunate to collaborate with healthcare providers, faith leaders, high school and college students, and business leaders in helping them to create welcoming and inclusive cultures where all can thrive.
Cultural humility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaSHLbS1V4w
Tuskegee Study: https://www.socialworker.com/feature-articles/ethics-articles/The_Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study_and_Its_Implications_for_the_21st_Century/
Racial biases about Black people and pain: https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patients-pain
Stephen Graves: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sggraves/
All In Consulting: https://www.allinconsulting.co/
Peter Cruz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjcruz/
Peter Cruz: Hey, everyone. Welcome to culture. Fit the podcast where we do our best to answer your equity inclusion questions. That'll help you navigate the professional landscape, especially when you are not a culture fit. Peter Cruz
Carol Hamilton: and I'm Carol Hamilton. And today on the podcast, we're going to be talking to Steven Graves and looking at diversity equity inclusion in the healthcare practice.
Peter: It's a great conversation and I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Stephen Graves: Hey Carol,
Peter: How are you doing Carol?
Carol: How are you doing Peter?
Peter: I'm doing all right. I had a good night's sleep because it's like 16 degrees over here. And when it's really cold, you just sleep real hard. So I didn't move. Not one time. So I'm well rested and well-prepared for today.
Carol: Today we do have a guest. Our guest is Steven Graves. How are you doing Steven?
Stephen: Good. Glad to be here.
Peter: Could you provide some background information on yourself?
Stephen: Yeah. I'm Stephen Graves. I'm a native of a small town in South Carolina, upstate South Carolina called Greenville. In between Greenville and Columbia I started in the healthcare profession dating back to when I was in college interning at a disabilities and special needs facility. Also pursue my master's at the medical university of South Carolina down in Charleston, South Carolina. So I had to have about a decade of experience in the medical field. And just really glad to be here today and have a conversation with you all
Peter: glad to have you for sure. I mean, you're our inaugural guests, so without you, the show actually wouldn't be possible.
Stephen: Oh, wow. That is a privilege and an honor pressure too.
Carol: No, no pressure at all. And Steven, I think, as you've been in that field, you've also stepped into specializing more closely in diversity, equity and inclusion. Is that correct? Is that right?
Stephen: Yes. Yeah. I've been doing the diversity equity and inclusion work. Like I said for the last 10 years, I really opened my eyes during my time at the medical university of South Carolina working with a limited English professor. In communities trying to make sure that they have access to translators interpreters, and really just making sure that those services meet and exceed their expectations to improve the patient experience. I was really blessed and honored to be around some great folks, great mentors at the MUFC community. And it just really opened my eyes to the disparities that are in healthcare, in the medical community and understanding how we can. Address those to have a more equitable society and make sure that everybody's living to their full potential as far as their physical and mental health is concerned.
Peter: Hmm. Great. And this is coming this first, like my question, like it's coming from a place of ignorance because I don't know anyone else who works in the medical field. Especially in diversity equity inclusion. Is there, what are, where are things that are similar? From the medical field in DEI that are, that exist in nonprofit or corporate spaces. And then if there's anything that's unique to there, can you like to shine some light on those?
Stephen: Yeah, that's a good question. I think the similarities are that in order for shifts to be made in order for real change, transformational change to happen. You've got to have senior leadership commitment. Whoever is at the top of the organization has the most power. They have the most influence. Oftentimes they can control where energy is being in place, where resources are being placed. So the one similarity, the main similarity is really around that senior leadership commitment piece. I think another similarity is also around being. Data and evidence-based driven, right? So a lot of times the mistake that people make in this particular aspect of diversity equity inclusion is because there's such an emotional tie and pull to it with feelings and it can trigger a lot of people. People don't take a logical, maybe rational and evidence-based approach. And I think whether you're in the nonprofit space, whether you're in the corporate America space, whether you're healthcare like myself, You still need to be driven by data, right? Collecting what we call real data, race, ethnicity, and language, data, collecting sexual orientation and gender identity data. So that's another similarity. And in terms of collecting that data, and then a third similarity would be around using that data. To sit and drive real goals in terms of what are going to be some realistic goals that we can measure and they can help us chart our path forward. I would say the main difference in healthcare is that you are literally talking about life and death, right? Yeah. A lot of people in other spaces can say, okay, well, this is nice to have. But if you don't have the right type of language, access programming in place, or an effective language access program, it can literally be a life or death situation. There can be some dire consequences if you're not focusing on equitable outcomes, I would say that would be the biggest difference when it comes to working in this space in healthcare lands versus any other field.
Peter: Thank you. I think that last bit does stand out for me, it being about life or death. I think that probably because my professional experience is all in nonprofit, like youth focused, youth empowerment and because it doesn't have to do with life or death, it provides that opportunity to. Second guests like to prolong and like to require more patients because the senior leaders have the option to just like, maybe test it a little bit, but then if it doesn't feel like it will succeed. And, but does that mean that things, decisions come quicker in, in, in, in the middle of the profession?
Carol: The huge organizations that you're dealing with as well. I mean, huge systems with so many people and that, that, that makes the complexity even, even more so.
Stephen: Exactly right. When you're talking about a large health system, I've worked in health systems ranging from 8,000 employees to 25,000 employees. So it takes a long time to normalize this across the landscape. If you will, when it comes to that large healthcare. There is a higher sense of urgency, I would say right now, based on the events that happened last year, I think America's having a reawakening and that's happening in the medical field as well. Thinking about the COVID disparities related to the pandemic black and brown communities being hit harder than other communities of color and white communities. When you're thinking about that, the sense of urgency has elevated recently, those same barriers when it comes to that bureaucratic nature of the hierarchy is still there. And that's unfortunate, but I think, again, I'm hopeful and optimistic that right now there's going to be a shift that happens as a result of occurrence.
Carol: And I can imagine that that sense of crisis, actually, it could be helpful and it could also be a hindrance of, oh, we've just got to focus on COVID right now. We can't focus on those, those other things going unquote. And I imagine that plays out as well.
Stephen: It does, it does. And, me being able to prioritize the advice that I would give to leaders when it comes to that resistance, right. In terms of saying, okay, we got to put this off because there's other priorities saying, Hey, these are priorities within priorities. Right? So wherever the conversation is, whether it's around COVID, whether it's around your EHR, electronic health care, right. There's going to be a lens of diversity, equity and inclusion within all of those priorities. Maybe you're building and expanding your practices, expanding a wing, getting your hospital. You've got to have some consideration for, okay, how are we going to make this accessible, right, for a person with disability? How are we going to make sure that language signage is translated in a way that folks who don't speak English as a first language can understand? So these things are going to be embedded, right? Any initiative, any project that hospital organizations are going to be working on. And that's the case that I always try to make when it comes to prioritizing this work.
Carol: And you mentioned data and evidence driven. Can you give us an example of how that's been helpful and bringing that perspective or bringing that evidence to the team.
Stephen: Yeah. So a lot of the organizations that I've had the pleasure to work inside of and consult with survey, right? So doing engagement surveys and really asking some core questions around inclusivity and inclusion saying, do you feel respected? In the walls, these hospitals, do you feel there are patients who are racial, racially, diverse, ethnically diverse, linguistically diverse. Do you feel like they're being respected, being treated the same, that data can provide a baseline and it can really be useful and valuable to getting you some really great information that you can build off of. So that's one part of the data collection that I'm referring to. Another aspect is looking at patient experience scores, right? So this is something we all can relate to, whether you're. Inside of the healthcare system, or you are receiving services as a patient, everybody can either deliver, how their experience was, or we're going to hear how the experience was on our end as healthcare providers. That data can be stratified sorted by race, by ethnicity, by language, by age or all of these different demographic factors. And you can realize contrast, and you can see those contrasts and that data. If again, if the organization's willing to make that commitment, to look at their data differently, to see, okay, there's a difference because different, yeah, this exists and that takes a little bit of commitment and it takes a little bit of discomfort to look at that and say, White patients are having a much better experience when they're interacting with their nurse at bedside than a black patient is. So those that, that type of data will really help tell a story and validate for the, the nonbelievers, if you will, this work is so important.
Peter: Speaking of non-believers. One, one question that we were going to ask you is the anti-vaxxer community. How has that, especially over the past year during COVID, how has that impacted I guess the increase of people coming into the hospital. And is there a community that exists within the staff? The medical professionals that are also anti-vaxxers.
Stephen: Yeah. I would say that when it comes to anti-vaxxers and those who may be a little bit reluctant to take the backseat, it depends on the communities that you're talking about. Right. So we're talking about black and brown communities. There is an understandable and rightful way of having a district. Yeah, the medical community, right, because of history and because of what we've seen, not only in the healthcare space, but in all of our institutions across America. So the medical community as providers and professionals who have done significant harm over the last, however, a hundred, many years to validate those concerns and those anti-vaxxers, if you will. Yes, whether it's a staff member of color, whether it's a patient of color, I've seen it on both ends. And what part of the work that the medical community has to do is to regain trust of those communities by engaging more effectively and more creatively to make sure that, Hey, we are here for your best interests at hand and alleviating those concerns. But yes, there's definitely. That reluctance piece when it comes to the backs of nations, whether it's, staff members, black staff members of color, or folks, out in the community. Yeah.
Carol: And can you say more, a little bit more about that history of the, that really drove that distrust?
Stephen: Yeah. So I would say, dating back, you can Google the Tuskegee experiments, right? You can think about how women of color are right. Who were pregnant or how they've been treated. So there's a deep history and examples in terms of that level of distrust. And I would say going back to that language access piece, there are some, really Keystone cases in terms of capstones that this suggests okay. One word was mistranslated, right? One word was misinterpreted and it led to a misdiagnosis. It led to the wrong arm being amputated, the wrong leg being amputated. So there's several and numerous examples of that distrust that has been building over time.
Peter: Yeah. And I would also wonder with being that, I guess the white community is more of an individualistic community and people of color tend to be. You know more of a collective so to speak. And if one, one patient has a negative experience, it will already create the whole narrative for their entire community about whether or not they will even, if I'm not feeling well, whether or not I even go to the hospital because they mistreated my friend, they mistreated my mother, they mistreated whomever. Right. So that's that, yeah, that, that, that data that you mentioned earlier is so much more signal, like as equally as significant as it. About the historical context, I would say as well, right?
Stephen: Yeah. That data is current too. Right. So if you think about as recent as five years ago, I won't say the school, but there was a medical school and the students, the white medical residents actually thought that blue, black people's blood coagulated. And they literally thought that black people's skin was thicker and that led to a misdiagnosis and mismanagement of pain and, and under-valuing pain management and prescribing for pain. So the data most currently, and most recently it provides more than enough evidence to focus on communities of color and ensure they have equitable care. Yeah, that data piece is huge.
Peter: I'm looking, you mentioned this, but looking at the past year what we were, we've spoken a little bit about the experience for the patients or potential patients or the community for the medical professionals. How has that last year been? In regards to DEI being that there was like an increased sense of it.
Stephen: Yeah, depending on the communities, right. That you're speaking of within the medical community. Right? So the black and brown professionals in the medical field who I've had the opportunity and privilege to work around, they're saying, okay, well it's about time, right? It's about time, that we're having these conversations, right. It's long overdue. So that's by and large, the sentiment that I've heard from communities of color, when it comes to the white profession. There are some who they're on board, right? How can I be an ally? How can I do better as a provider to better serve my patient? But then of course you have those who are saying, okay, we're just one race. We're the human race, right. Or I'm colorblind. I don't see color, right. And you're thinking to yourself, okay, that's well intentioned. There's some blind spots there. Right. And then, Very far end of the spectrum. you have those folks who have been in the medical field for years, right? Maybe 30, 40 years. They just were not trained this way. Right. They didn't, they weren't trained to have any sort of cultural humility when thinking about the patients, the diverse patients that they're serving. So they have a mindset in place that they develop over time and then, develop a sense of their training that they really have to think through and say, okay, what, what do I need to uncover? What can I start getting curious about to be a better provider? Yes, definitely a range across the spectrum in terms of the response to the DEI efforts and the need for DEI efforts.
Peter: Hmm. I have just one more question. Really Carol, do you have any other questions right now? Okay, with all you've experienced the past four years, right. With administration, do court like that, connected with the pandemic and how people have interacted with Medicare and the medical systems. Are there things that you are optimistic about with the change of administration in regards to the medical profession? Cause I know that people think it's a very, it's a clean slate. A new president. We're all good. Now we got the right guy in office. It's no worries. Like we're all good. Right? We're all family. I'm colorblind and we love each other now again is that, is there any optimism moving forward? Any like short-term goals or long-term goals?
Stephen: I’m optimistic about, from what I've heard from the new administration that has entered is that they are reliable. They are going back to that data-driven evidence-based piece, or they're not saying things that may not be true or may not be validated with data. So I'm looking forward to hearing facts from scientists. Medical experts. And if they don't know the answer to something, I don't know the answer rather than making something up or forecasting something that's not true. Right. And not to get too much into my learning series, but I'm looking forward to not being told to inject our stills with Clorox or other, you know substances that may not, that would probably be harmful to us. So I'm looking forward to that. I'm also optimistic about the focus on disparities. Right? So I think one of the things that I saw coming out of this new administration is a task force. That's going to be developed for health disparities, health equity, especially, during the as we continue to navigate COVID right. So I'm optimistic that there's going to be a renewed focus on communities of color, of being a black man myself. I think that that's critically important. So there's a lot to be optimistic about and, just on a general level, I mean, I'm just looking forward to not being as exhausted. Right. So, and I think that goes for everybody, right? No matter what party you support, I think, everybody can attest to the last four years that it was just a level of exhaustion, whether you were defending the former administration or whether you were radically opposed to the former administration. Well, we can all agree to his bit. It will just be a lower temperature if you will, when it comes to what's happening in DC and how it's affecting our world.
Peter: Yeah, it is, it is, it is wild to think that facts were political.
Carol: We don't have to defend facts as a partisan issue. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, as you said, it's a long overdue this, this reckoning that we're having. And as. as groups come together and start really digging into the data that's there. And many people have already researched these things, but bringing it all together into light and to light to the general public through the press, I think it should hopefully move things along.
Stephen: Yeah, that's that, that, that is, I'm definitely hopeful. again, with the information, I think that, the. No, not having so much misinformation floating around. I think that'll definitely go a long way.
Carol: All right. Well, yeah. Thank you so much.
Stephen: All right. Yeah, thank y'all for having me. And I was glad to chat with you all today.
Peter: Thank you, Stevie. Hopefully we'll have you back at some other point, looking forward
Stephen: to that. Thank you. Yeah, that'd be fun.
Carol: So I was particularly struck by his CA our conversation about the mistrust of the medical profession and, and you named folks anti-vaxxers, which I often think of as, as white people who are afraid of vaccinations for their children, because of conspiracy theories around autism and, and lots of misinformation there. I think that history is something that I think a lot of white people are not aware of. And yeah, it's steep and it's going to take a long time to correct.
Peter: Yeah. And hopefully we're on being that, as we mentioned, that facts are now political. Like, I hope that that starts to deteriorate at some point soon so that this will, less of them are no longer political facts and are no longer political and the appropriate people are vaccinated appropriately, appropriately. I think a part that stood out to me was the idea of, and it's something that's open-ended is how do we regain the trust of those communities that have been negatively impacted? I feel like that exists everywhere in every single organization, nonprofit or corporate. How, how do you make sure that people are open and are receptive. That, that seems to be like an ongoing conversation and ongoing dilemma because of how deeply rooted and systematic our racism is or sexism or homophobia is and how ingrained that is and in our culture. So I feel like we'll, we'll probably touch on that in every single episode.
Carol: Yeah. And I don't think it's even real. Right. It's it's it starts to. Yeah. Trust.
Peter: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well I think that's it for this week's episode. So if you'd like us to attempt to answer one of your diversity equity, inclusion, questions, or scenarios for us and our guests, please feel free to send those to firstname.lastname@example.org.
Carol: Look forward to seeing those emails. So culturefitpod.gmail.com.
Peter: Yeah. One of those, try them. Try both of them. Somebody. All right, we'll see you next time. All right.
Carol: Thank you so much. See, talk to you soon.
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