Three stages of nonprofit leadership with Patton McDowell

In episode 92 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Patton McDowell explore the multi-generational nonprofit workforce, discussing the unique hurdles and opportunities that come with each stage of a non-profit career—from emerging leaders grappling with gaining practical experience to mid-career professionals encountering a plateau, and up to executive directors feeling isolated at the top. They underscore the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and the benefits of strategic personal planning. 

Show highlights:
Generational Workforce Challenges
- [00:07:00] Discussion on the challenges faced by different generations in the nonprofit sector.
Opportunity and Experience for Emerging Leaders
- [00:08:05] Patton talks about the emerging leader generation facing the issue of opportunity and joy market entry difficulties
Mid-Career Plateau
- [00:19:25] Patton introduces the idea of a "mid-career plateau" and how to overcome it.
Non-Traditional Career Paths
- [00:22:00] Carol discusses lateral moves and specialization as alternatives to traditional progression.
Executive Leadership Loneliness
- [00:24:22] Patton discusses the isolation felt by those in executive leadership roles.
Co-Executive Director Model
- [00:29:00] Carol asks Patton about shared leadership roles and his views on them.
Predictable Turnover
- [00:33:00] Carol reflects on predictable turnover and proactive recruitment approaches.
Organizational Exchanges
- [00:39:10] Patton and Carol discuss the benefits of organizational exchanges and site visits.
Personal Retreat for Leaders - [00:42:20] Patton recommends nonprofit leaders take personal retreats for strategic planning and Carol speaks on her own practice of personal strategic planning.

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Guest Bio:
Patton is the Founder of PMA Nonprofit Leadership, a coaching and consulting firm specializing in leadership development, fundraising, and strategic planning for nonprofits. He led fundraising efforts at two universities after starting his career at Special Olympics International. He's a Master Trainer for AFP Global, hosts the podcast Your Path to Nonprofit Leadership, and authored a best-selling book of the same name. He holds a bachelor's degree from UNC Chapel Hill, an MBA from Queens University of Charlotte, and a Doctorate from the University of Southern California. Patton currently serves as an Executive in Residence at the Jeb E. Brooks School of Public Policy at Cornell University.

Important Links and Resources:
Patton McDowell - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pattonmcdowell/
PMA Nonprofit https://www.pmanonprofit.com/
Charlie Gilkey - https://www.productiveflourishing.com/

Click "Read More" for a transcript of the interview.

Carol Hamilton: Welcome Patton. Welcome to mission impact.
Patton McDowell: Thank you, Carol. Delighted to be here.
Carol: So I'd like to start out with a question around what drew you to the work that you do? What would you say motivates you? And what would you describe as your why? 
Patton: I was fortunate. Like many of our colleagues, I came in, I guess, through a side door to the philanthropic sector. I was a college intern at Special Olympics International in Washington, D.C. And what I thought might just be a fun summer and then moving to whatever else my future might have held forward. Became an eye opening experience. I was able to work at the Special Olympics when Eunice Kennedy Shriver, the founder, was still actively involved, and it was fascinating and inspiring.
And I saw not just the power of that organization, the power of her vision, but also the potential of a career. in the sector. And so I indeed stayed and worked for the Special Olympics, both at the international office as well as the North Carolina state office. Okay. And, and so that launched me into a career.
I then subsequently worked in higher education as a fundraiser for about 10 years. And so anyway I have to give credit to the Special Olympics and Eunice Kennedy Shriver as the origin of my career path. 
Carol: Well, I often talk about how my brother who is developmentally disabled and autistic and deaf is certainly probably part of my origin story of, to move into the sector, but I'm wondering also now as you talk that whether he was participating in Special Olympics in the greater DC area, just about right, or it might've been, we might've been over overlapping, but, He never really he, whatever his, his combination of of.
I don't know. I don't want to call them issues or challenges or whatever it is. The truth is he doesn't care about competition or it never made any sense to him. And so it wasn't something that, that really was, was a great fit for him, but it is for so many people. I just really enjoy it. So with that launching into the sector, you now help people at all stages of their leadership journey and career journey in the nonprofit sector from emerging leaders to those more at the mid level or mid career, and then those in leadership positions and.
I like to talk to you about some of the common challenges at those stages and, and then really, what folks can do to address them. And, and it's interesting, cause we're really at a point where we have four generations in the workforce and. It's been a minute since I started out.
So thinking about those emerging leaders, I know, I know things have changed a lot, but what are you seeing with that emerging group of leaders in terms of Gen Z millennials and the challenges that they're facing with developing or stepping into their leadership capacity?
Yeah, that's 
Patton: A great question. And you're right, perhaps in generations past that you and I represent number one, the biggest issue is opportunity. Because so many of that generation, the emerging leader generation are deciding to go into philanthropic studies, nonprofit leadership, nonprofit management, and just about every university you and I could think of has or is going to have both undergraduate and graduate level programming in this field, which is exciting.
So, as non profit leaders, there is a talent wave that is coming at us, but the challenge is, I guess, two ways. One non profit leaders have to adapt to this new generation who are coming in generally well educated well oriented to the opportunities and challenges. So what are you as a nonprofit leader doing to attract and retain this new generation of talent?
But then the emerging leader, as you suggest, I think often it's the practical skills in terms of some of the coaching and training programs I'm doing. They're getting the classwork, the textbook information, but they need practical skills in terms of One, how to get a job, literally some of those job recruitment tactics that they are trying to navigate.
And then real practical experience. In other words, I hear over and over Carol that I can't even get in the door because, if they say you have to have three years of experience, even for entry level, then how are they supposed to get experience if They can't even get in the door.
So that to me would be king of the fundamental challenge and, but I have some ideas, but I'll pause there.
Carol: Yeah, because it's interesting thinking about, like, as you described, you started as an intern. And, when I moved into the sector there weren't all of those programs that were teaching nonprofit management.
They started developing maybe 5 to 10 years into my career. But now you have people who may have studied that at the undergraduate level. They may have gone on for graduate work. And so there's also a time when you've done that amount of preparation. There can be a bit of a mismatch between the organizational expectations of you're going to start at the ground versus someone coming in with a master's degree, wanting to start a little further ahead.
And so how do you bring those two together? Yeah, 
Patton: I. My encouragement to nonprofit leaders is to be careful that your job descriptions, your job postings don't create artificial barriers. So in other words, like the one you and I just mentioned, if you require, and I know you need to, in some cases, require a certain amount of experience, but you might want to have a little more flexibility there because you're right, a graduate student might have practical experience and might be fully capable of doing the job.
But you'd hate to not even have them interview because they simply were ruled out because of three years of experience. Give him a chance, give him an interview and see what happens. 
Carol: Yeah. And I'm seeing that across a lot of different, from a lot of different points of view of organizations taking another look at those kinds of assumptions built into job descriptions around.
So true. does the, does the job actually require a bachelor's degree or, and this is a graduate degree, does it really, really require that or are there other pathways for people to, start and then if you're offering internships, are you, are you offering it in a way that many people can participate versus folks who, have their own resources to support themselves.
If you're asking people to do a free internship. Good 
Patton: point. And I, of course, realize there's a cost involved, but I just think it's one of the greatest investments I have seen organizations make, and it helps bridge the gap you and I are discussing. In other words, if you can get a graduate student internship and they prove themselves, then you may acquire some talent.
they get oriented to your organization. I do think it's hard. Particularly if we're trying to diversify our staff and give opportunities to individuals who may not have the means to accept a free internship. They gotta work. Right. Exactly. And so I have seen wonderful examples.
they're, they understand they're not going to make big money, but you can pay them a little bit and you will get, I think, an even greater return and, and I've seen it even in my small consulting practice. I have tried to maintain two graduate student interns for the last five years and have just seen wonderful examples of their work.
And again, hopefully I'm giving them that experience that maybe will help them, bridge a gap when an application says you have to have some experience. 
Carol: Yeah, yeah, no, I think for organizations to think about different ways that they can offer people a way in and, and really can it can, can help so, yeah, all the things are going to happen. So you talk about the leaders kind of. And I think there's a whole different set of expectations.
There's how I get a job, but, and then, a different set of experience coming into the sector in terms of education, probably, knowing a lot of, from a theory, theoretical product point of view, but then how do you really get those, those practical skills. But I think there's also a big disconnect in terms of Just expectations at the different generational levels of, what does it mean to be an employee?
What does it mean to show up at work? All those kinds of things. So what are some of the things that rubs that you're seeing with the folks that you're working with? 
Patton: Yeah, it's a great point. And I think the hybrid work environment is challenging on many levels. You've got maybe more traditional senior members of organizations that, they're used to going in the office and having set hours.
And this younger generation, and I'm hesitant to generalize because I'm in an older generation. I like the flexibility. So we better be careful to classify everybody. But I've seen some of that tug of war. Between the senior administrator wanting to have that structure, wanting to have everybody back in the office.
And I think that is a challenge. And let's face it, that 20 something generation that grew up in a pandemic, they grew up in a virtual environment, they're used to it. And in fact, many of them are going to expect it. And so you've got to decide as a senior leader, can you provide flexibility?
I think again, I'm of a mindset, as many of, I think, our colleagues are, Carol, that, get the job done. And if, if you have to leave early or you come, your schedule is somewhat flexible. I think that's what that generation is going to look for. So if you have to maintain strict office hours and strict routines, that's up to you, but I think you will lose out on talent.
Carol: Yeah, it becomes that it becomes a barrier in the other direction of not being a an organization that, that is really attractive to, to, to new talent and, there's some circumstances depending on the type of work that if, if there's, direct service that it may need to be in person, but even now a lot of that has moved virtually as well.
And. Okay. Great. And I think the other thing that people organizations are, there's been a lot of talk about them shifting to hybrid and or remote is an inability to be collaborative, which I don't agree with because it's, well, that's an argument. it, it, it will happen. It's just the poorly facilitated collaboration that was happening in person is even worse online.
And it's mostly from my point of view that because people don't have the skills to either facilitate it in person. Actually, or really know how to create conversations and create the environment to have collaborative conversations online. And so it's really a matter of skills versus, we can't have culture if we're remote.
Well, you have culture 
Patton: regardless. Exactly. Whether you call it that or not. But you raise a good point, too, in that I think organizations have a right to be intentional about etiquette in the virtual meeting room. And, again , I've got children that are in this generation, recent college graduates who, they're used to their college virtual experience. Yeah, you had a hat on and you just kind of, You can, you don't have to turn your screen on.
You're not well lit. You're just there to listen. And so sometimes I think it's worth talking about virtual etiquette so that you can maintain a culture that is as positive as it can be in a virtual setting. 
Carol: Yeah, I, I have definitely seen that as well, where you, where you really do need and like many things to have an explicit conversation about what are we expecting?
What are the expectations here? if we are working remotely. And we're, but we are having a synchronous meeting, what are the expectations for you showing up that it is a professional environment, all of those things that you're not, you, you aren't assuming you're, even if you've moved, even if you're doing an internship, you're, you're, you're now in a, in a work environment.
And so the expectations may be different, but not assuming that those are shared and having a conversation about it. Correct. How about folks at that mid career level or mid, could be mid career, could be kind of, middle man, the, the proverbial middle managers in organizations.
What are you seeing in terms of those folks and at that stage of their career? 
Patton: I'm using the term, Carol, of late the mid-career plateau. Yeah. They, they, they like the work. They've been in it, 8, 10, 12 years, but they feel like they've hit a wall or hit a ceiling. And so that to me is an important crossroad in their professional career.
And so getting clarity around, all right, do you want to climb the ladder you're on? And you don't have to, but do you see if I'm a director, do I want to be an executive director? Yeah. And so what I'm trying to do when I'm working coaching or we have a mastermind group, it includes a good percentage or probably what I'd call this mid career plateau.
I want to be an executive director, find me a path. And so to me, we break down the vision elements of, all right, what do you want to stay in the sector you're in? If you're in education, do you want to stay there? Would you consider healthcare? Would you consider human services, arts and culture?
And often what I'm trying to do is encourage someone who's just in that I, I, I think I want to stay here, but I just don't know. And I realize, it's easy as an outsider to just say, well, come on, snap out of it. No, if you're locked into a silo and you're getting worn out, then maybe it's good to step back and think about some of the questions like would you move?
What I'm trying to do is get them out of just being miserable. And so let's talk about is it the organization? All right, well, do you want to stay in the sector? Would you stay in this community? Would you move for the right opportunity? What exactly does leadership look like for you? And maybe breaking it down into some of those component parts.
And then let's come up with a plan to help you get there. In other words, do an assessment of your skills. That, that maybe right now you lack to move to the executive level. I care for a lot of our folks that we work with. It's the financial acumen that I would say is a hindrance, not all, but many of our nonprofit friends come in from the program side, marketing, development, great skills.
You need them, but. Ultimately, I think if you're going to be hired at an executive level, you're going to need, the, be able to manage a board, you're going to need to manage a budget, the P and L that, the business of nonprofit requires, and so that's what I'm seeing is the, the plateau maybe is some of these hard and soft skills, and then we just need to come up with a plan to help you break through.
Carol: Yeah. And I would think that the other one that I've heard is the, the fundraising, being able to fundraise. Great. If 
Patton: You didn't come through that. Yeah. Yeah. 
Carol: And so that's challenging for a program person. And I think inside an organization, it can be particularly challenging because somebody, especially if they've been in a role for a long time, can become so identified with it that folks can't even see their, their potential for, continuing if that's what they want to do and other folks, I'm sure that they may hit a wall, but it may be, is being an executive director, the only option or is there some way that I can go deeper with what I do and maybe it's changing to a different organization so that there are new challenges or, or something, but it's not always.
I think that the typical answer has been, move up to the next level, but that isn't for everybody. 
Patton: Such a good point. And you're right. And that can be a source of that frustration. I don't know that I want to move up, but I guess it's my only option. So you're right. That's when I think you have to look sideways.
Sometimes lateral move, right? Maybe it's a larger organization where your role would have increasing responsibility, and that would be a positive move. But again, you raise a good point that I found it in my own personal career. it's easy to get focused on the latter. That you're on is the only ladder when in fact there are multiple ladders, maybe right around 
Carol: you.
Yeah. Yeah. And for me, I mean, it's been interesting that as I continued in my career, I just realized that I became more and more interested in the how of people, how they work versus what. They were particularly good points, so that's what led me to organization development and, and then ultimately to strategy work is like, how do we get it all done?
How do we work together? How do we set priorities? And, and, you know. Exactly what those are is up to the folks I'm working with, but that's what I realized that I really enjoyed and can be my contribution to the sector. So a little bit of a lateral move in a way. And even if I were to have stayed in organizations, I think probably I would have been focused on something like a chief of staff role where it's more internally focused.
So again, like how, how, how is everything working? Inside the organization versus that real external facing role with the executive 
Patton: director, but you play to your strengths, right? You play to what brings you joy. And that's so good because I think a lot of people, as you said, get frustrated because they assume there's a singular path.
And in fact, there may be. Multiple ones to consider. Yeah. And I think, 
Carol: the, that, that one path has been, traditionally what's, what's offered to folks as the way to succeed. Right. I think what we're learning more and more is that no, it needs to, it needs to know exactly what you're talking about.
Play to your strengths, play to what really lights you up. And, then that's going to be very individualistic. Indeed. Yeah, yeah. So how about for those folks who are either about to be stepping into that executive role or or are in it? What? What are some of the things that you're coaching them around 
Patton: that?
It's a lonely world when you get to that senior role. And I hear this in multiple ways. But There's an isolation that sometimes is a surprise. You've been working so hard, but now, all of a sudden, you're the boss. And maybe you were a peer of other colleagues in this organization, or if you're new, again, you are the singular leader.
And you can't necessarily go to your staff about some of your challenges, nor can you go to your board. Right. So you're stuck in the middle and sometimes struggling with the turnover issues that face so many non profit leaders now on the staff side and the disengagement sometimes of your board. Either micromanaging you or disengage, neither of which is good.
And so there's a lot of personal counsel and I think peer support becomes critical. And so finding a peer group, because when, when you were one of five directors, you had a peer group, right, at an organization. Now that you're the executive director, that peer group is not going to be there in your office.
It's going to be a comparable executive director. And I would suggest always finding an aspiration. Peers to someone who's 10 years ahead of you, in the role perhaps, or someone you admire doing work like yours. But the other thing I've seen Carol, a lot is. The challenges of just managing the volume, there's a real intensity now that you're in charge when perhaps you're a step or two below, a lot of your structure is built in, provided you're, you're going to the meetings you have to go to, but now you're the one setting the agenda, literally setting the calendar.
And so a lot of the conversations I have is I asked the question, how do you manage the volume? Information coming at you, there, there, I think is a lot of personal productivity because your answer can't be just stay up later, right? Which is what many of us do. And that's just not sustainable.
It's not sustainable. Right? So you've got to have systems built in. 
Carol: And I think, differentiating what you really, really need to be part of that volume. Do you need to weigh in on and to what extent, can you empower and then that and that empowerment of folks that you're delegating to you need to have that trust.
And so how do you build that trust, 
Patton: Especially when you grow up and again, so many of the very talented nonprofit leaders we see, they're used to rolling up their sleeves, right? They've always done that, or they have just 
Carol: Stayed up. That's a value that, I, I'm not, I'm not worried about getting my hands dirty.
I can scrub those pots or pick up that trash behind the building, whatever it might be. And yes, great. You can do it. And is that the best use of your time? 
Patton: Exactly. 
Carol: Cause I think sometimes you want to do that to show I don't know. Demonstrate that value. Yes. On the other hand, if you get caught up in all of that, all the time, it may not be really focusing on the strategy.
And I mean, you talked about it being lonely and I, I certainly think it's so valuable to have those peer groups where you're able to talk to other executive directors, maybe of the similar size organization, maybe a little bit bigger, as, as you said, at the same. Stage new or, also connecting with people who've been in it for a little bit longer.
Right. But I'm also seeing a lot of maybe not a lot, but it's getting a lot of conversation around folks experimenting with different ways to set up that executive director that isn't always a singular person. What are you seeing in terms of that? 
Patton: I've in fact on, on our podcast, I've interviewed a couple of pairs.
Co executive directors. I think it's still challenging. I mean, I think if you have a unique set of blended personalities that can work. But I still have some questions about the challenges that might bring as to who exactly is in charge. I mean, you in some cases, I guess you divide the labor over two people, but ultimately they have to come together and agree to make final decisions like the budget, right?
And both sides need their finances. But so I've seen some of that. I guess I'm still waiting to see if that can work for the long haul. But maybe again, I'm too rooted in tradition. You have to have one person ultimately where the buck stops. 
Carol: Yeah, it's interesting because I think, just on the surface, it seems like, well, more hands, less work, but there's also the more people you have involved, the more coordination and consultation that you need to do.
So it's not a one to one. And so I think, yeah as organizations are thinking about having more of a shared leadership philosophy or approach, they really have to. Think through, yes, who's doing what, who's responsible for what, who gets to make what decisions, what decisions do we have to make together, all of those things in it.
And it becomes even more important to be really clear about those things. I think from what I've observed, that's where people get caught up a lot, where they haven't gotten real clear even when it's just one person. Yep. Yep. Exactly right. So what are some other things that you're seeing with those folks you talked about?
Turnover is a big issue right now. Are there other big challenges that you're seeing executive directors tack having to 
Patton: tackle? Yeah, I, I think, and you've touched on it several times, but I, I think they, they have to think of themselves as, as talent development specialists. and sadly, turnover is affecting just about every sub sector within the nonprofit community.
So if you're going to be effective in your role, and in addition to everything you have to do on your job description, I think you have to be really thoughtful about being a year round talent development specialist. What are you doing to attract and then retain? the next generations of talent, they're out there.
But I think if you just wait until a vacancy occurs and then scramble, which sadly many of us have had to do, you miss out. And so what can you do, like you said earlier, Carol, can we create an internship program? Can we, maybe as an executive director, do you agree to speak to the college class in your community, knowing that.
You getting out there as an ambassador for your nonprofit might get someone from that classroom to think about what, I'd like to work for them someday. Again, it's those things that maybe don't have a near term benefit, but I think you have to begin to think like that longer term so that your organization is protected from the talent drain that is occurring.
Carol: Yeah, that's a great point. And I think it's. it's one of those things that feels like an add on sometimes where it really needs to be central where I know when I was, in that middle management to your one of the things that from my job description was like a little of the.
Oh, and other duties as assigned, but actually was, I don't know, a good percentage of the time I actually spent was always being in a hiring process because we had a number of entry level roles in my department and, and, and we always wanted to hire smart people. And so they were in those roles for, Maybe 18 months and then they would go on to graduate school or they would go into the Peace Corps or they would go into the field that we were serving.
So we were, we were always probably six months away from our next search that we were going to be in. And it's a reality, but it, but somehow the way the job was framed, that was an extra where it wasn't at all. It was so central to what I was doing. 
Patton: Just so well put, innit? Again, I like the way you said it, that it needs to be a year round focus and not just a scramble when we have a vacancy.
What are we doing to attract talent? Are we lifting up our younger professionals in our social media to demonstrate to everybody else this is a good place to work? Are we providing an effective onboarding or an orientation process? I think generally the sector does a poor job. And I, I'm not picking on people because if you're overwhelmed with your current job, it's hard to spend time with a new person, right?
But I think it's not totally surprising that the turnover exists because we bring them in, we parachute them in, we throw a three ring binder at them and expect them to 
Carol: figure it out. Just jump, jump in the deep end with no, no, no, 
Patton: no wonder 
Carol: They are three ring binder that feels like an anchor, not a.
Patton: It's not a surprise that we lose some of our folks. So as the executive leader, I think you have to be very intentional about, yeah, what are the processes that assure talent gets here and stays here and sees that as legitimately part of your job description. 
Carol: Yeah, and I almost wanted to we, we're a larger organization relatively I think it was probably 85 staff at that point.
And, every department had entry level folks. And, I almost wanted us to say, what's the next level of an internship program where we would basically have like an, an entry level, like fellowship program where they have rotation, they would rotate through, let's say three different departments and, six months each department or something.
And then we would know, we would always know we were recruiting for the next class instead of it being a quote unquote scramble, which was totally predictable, but that didn't happen, but. If somebody wants to use that model, please take it. You'd be open 
Patton: to it. But I think too, there's a similar track for the executive leader around the board, the board.
And so often we inherit the board that we arrive in and work with. But I think immediately you want to think about board development. Yeah, and maximizing the people that you have, but quickly building a pipeline of community talent that can serve on your board. And again, I think the mistake I've seen sometimes is, and I get it, you're busy with everything you have to do in the office and internally.
But if you don't spend some time on board development, that quickly comes back to bite you. And then you're really struggling politically and leadership wise if you haven't put some time in it. 
Carol: Yeah. What are some of those benefits that you see of that coaching or leadership development or peer support at each of those levels?
Patton: Yeah, I, I just think one, there's a peace of mind that there's an emotional support structure that shouldn't be underestimated. When you feel like you're all alone and you're, banging your head against the wall, it's always good. I suggest you find two people that are in your job somewhere else and two people that are ahead of you on the path to comps to aspiration, because I just think that creates a very positive support network that if you leave it, just to your office, you may not get that.
And so that peer network is huge and also think investing in your own professional development in a specific way. Not just vaguely, I hope someday I can be an executive director. And if I work hard, opportunities may come and that's true. They may come, but I think it's a more proactive and positive approach to think about. All right, if I want to be an executive director in five years, what literally are the skill sets that are being sought after?
If you went and looked at a job board right now for an executive director role, which is one of the exercises I do, it doesn't mean you're going to apply for it now, but what does it tell you? And it's things like you said, Carol, what you're going to have to have the finance, the fundraising, you're going to see those skills.
And now we can make a plan around that, which keeps you from dwelling on the challenges of the day. All right, maybe I can back up and see that in the long run, I'm going to be ready. And when that time comes. 
Carol: And to be ready to advocate for yourself. And when a big project comes up, like, let me, let me help out the executive director on a piece.
Cause I think because everyone is so rushed and overwhelmed and stretched, it's easy to, again, like I said, see people just the way they've always been, or that role, just the way it's always been. And so not as easy to see what might be those stretch kinds of assignments that could help.
Someone building out a skill set that they don't have that would also benefit the organization. A 
Patton: Great idea. And in fact, I was fortunate as a program guy in the Special Olympics. My boss did not object to me trying to learn from our CFO. I knew the financial side was an area I needed to learn.
And so I went to the committee meeting, the board finance committee. I asked and nobody, everybody's like, yeah, sure. If you want to spend more time in the meetings and I, I scheduled time with the CFO and just said, Hey, would you mind if I took you to lunch a couple of times and just, I have some specific questions, help me understand the report.
Help me understand what to look for on the finance side. And similarly, I've seen. HR directors or other program folks that will, Hey, can I come to the campaign meeting with the fundraising director? And so, to your point, Carol, I think our colleagues might well let us in if we're willing and are proactive in terms of cross training, if you will, in our current organization.
Carol: Yeah, and I talked to one person who had a particularly interesting professional development thing that they did. I think we often think of programs, training, workshops, coaching, but they actually did an exchange where they went, they went on a site visit. To an organization that was very similar to theirs, but in a different location and with a person who had a similar role and then they did a swap.
So he basically did an organizational exchange. It was like, wow, that's such a great idea to be able to see. Well, how do you do the things that we do and each being able to cross pollinate on, how they're approaching different challenges. Well, 
Patton: When I had led a university team, it was one of the exercises I would do, similar to what you just described.
I had everybody on the team identify a peer and go visit them. So, obviously, geographically, it had to be reasonably close. But, then everyone had to come back to our next team retreat and share what they learned. What were your takeaways? It just opened up so many doors. Sometimes we learn, wow, that institution's doing some things we ought to try.
Other times we learn, what, we're not as bad off as I thought we were. Right? We're 
Carol: doing things better than we think. 
Patton: My visit proved that maybe we're not as struggling in some areas as I thought. But again, it's to your point, get out of the office, and learn. And to me, that just moves everybody forward.
And 
Carol: certainly it's a lot easier with, being able to hop on a zoom call with somebody, but there is also that value of actually doing a in person site visit and just seeing being able to observe things that you wouldn't be able to observe just in the, in the, the square of the, the zoom screen, 
Patton: People will accept that.
I doubt many of your peers, whether it's virtual or in person, Hey, can I come shout at you for a day? Yeah. and, and that. I think it has just wonderful benefits for both sides. 
Carol: And from an organizational point of view, I think that point of making sure that people loop it back. if the organization is supporting you in going to a conference or a workshop or doing an exchange or any of the things that we're talking about to do exactly what you had your team do or come back and give us a highlight summary, give us a, what were your takeaways?
What did you learn from this? I mean, it's like, it's multiple benefits of 
Patton: exactly. Exactly. 
Carol: Helping people, like, learn how to present, synthesize information, it helps them remember what they, what they learned versus just going to a conference being overwhelmed and then forgetting it all the minute you get back to the office.
And then for the people around the table, it brings new things and novelty into the, into the conversation. 
Patton: Couldn't agree more. That's such a win for everybody around the table and, and let's everyone be an expert, right? And so instead of a top down meeting, everybody comes in as an expert from whatever their site visits.
Reveals. Yeah. 
Carol: So part of that talent development, one of the things I used to do once a month with our staff, with my team was I would have everybody I don't, I don't remember exactly how we had it set up, but basically it was like once a month someone would present an article from the field or some research or something, been to a webinar or whatever, and, and then we would have a conversation about it.
So, we always were. trying to not just make sure we were getting all the work done, but always, bringing new information and new perspectives into what we were doing. Perfect. 
Patton: And you're creating a culture that not only where your current team enjoys, but frankly, you're creating a culture that others on the outside would, they want to come work in an environment like that.
Well, we were the 
Carol: learning department, so I figured we needed to do some learning ourselves. You gotta demonstrate, 
Patton: practice what you preach, 
Carol: right? We tried to practice what we preach, yeah. So on each episode, at the end, I ask each guest what permission slip would they give non profit leaders, or what would they invite them to consider to avoid being a martyr to the cause, and as they work towards cultivating that, that healthier organizational culture that will attract and retain staff.
So a permission slip or an invitation 
Patton: for the senior leader, for the senior leader, take a personal retreat. This is something I have advocated later in my career, and again, it speaks to just some of the physical and emotional fatigue that I know non profit leaders are feeling, and so there's often a guilt complex of like, I can't Take time off.
I can't back up. You need to, because if you're burning yourself out, it creates a toxic environment around you. And so I've talked a lot about, and not just a, I mean, yes, you need a vacation. So don't get me wrong, but what I'm suggesting is a more specific design around a personal planning retreat and something I started doing about 10 years ago and, and you, it.
It reminds you how little time we have that we really are unplugged. So you have to be intentional, you can't take your phone and take all your devices and continue to work. Now you need to unplug for a period of time. That's reasonable. I find it's energizing, it's refreshing, and allows you to get perspective.
And so I guess, if that is a coupon I would offer, that's what I would definitely suggest. 
Carol: What are some of the, what are some of the things when you're doing your personal retreat that you're How are you designing it so that it's really helpful to yourself? Love 
Patton: That question. I mean, just like many of your listeners have sat through probably countless strategic planning sessions, I design it similarly personally.
First of all, I spend time on the vision statement. What is your personal vision statement? Let's think about 5, 10, 20 years down the road. And so I frame some questions around that. So first we see where we want to go, and maybe there's some things that aren't totally clear. That's fine.
But like you and I talked about earlier, maybe there are some things like, I know I want to stay in health care, and I know that I want to stay in this community, then let's design your vision there. The second phase that I do is just some self assessment exercises. I've got a worksheet I use that I think there are 12 essential skills and experiences for successful nonprofit leaders.
And so that in of itself becomes part of the agenda for the personal retreat where I can quietly reflect on, all right, am I, what would I need to do to get better in fundraising or in finance management, board development? And then put it into a plan. I usually look at three time horizons, there's a three year longer term.
That would be something like, hey, I need to get a graduate degree if I'm going to be competitive for the senior position I hope to get. All right, well, let's put that in motion and then maybe there's the one year milestones. What am I going to do in 2024? And then I want to leave the retreat though with a very clear short term plan, next 90 days.
Right, so that I can feel action. But again, these things I know are familiar to you, Carol. We do it as an organization, we do vision, we do assessment, and we put it into a plan. But I find a lot of people haven't personally applied that same strategic framework. And that's what maybe a personal retreat could 
Carol: do.
Yeah, and I actually am now doing that, basically trying to do it twice a year, at least once a year for the same thing, right? Okay. I do strategic planning with Oregon at the organizational level. What am I doing for myself? Exactly. It's very similar to what you're talking about. I've got the longer term vision statement and then taking a look at that.
Okay. So. a year later, do I still want those things or do I, do I want to tweak that, what have I made progress on? And then the shorter point of what are the basic parts for me as being as, as, competencies or skill areas for a consultant and a business owner, where am I right now?
Where do I want to be? What's the gap where what's going to get me from here to there? So, yeah, I realized, okay, I need to, I need to actually, walk my own talk and apply it to myself. 
Patton: Love it. And you make a good 
Carol: point. To take the week off, and, and put the out of office on and, and, not, not be caught up in email and all the things to, to take, take that time.
Patton: Could not agree more. And I hope some of our friends who are in nonprofit leadership will consider that. Not easy to do, but it pays off in so many ways. Yeah. 
Carol: Not easy, but so valuable. Right. Right. Many, many long term benefits. Well, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation.
Really appreciated you coming on the podcast. 
Patton: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.