Mission: Impact podcast & blog
Build a better world without becoming a martyr to your nonprofit cause
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 In episode 107 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Kim Romain discuss the intricacies of leadership in nonprofit organizations, focusing on the unique challenges and opportunities faced by executive teams. Romain emphasizes the importance of cultivating a collaborative, mission-driven leadership culture that avoids burnout and fosters a sense of belonging among team members. She highlights the critical role of self-awareness and the need for leaders to step back from day-to-day problem-solving to focus on visionary leadership. The conversation also explores the dynamics of competition within teams, the impact of leadership behavior on organizational culture, and the importance of creating supportive systems that align with the needs of individual team members. Episode highlights: The Role of Leadership Teams in Nonprofits [00:05:08 - 00:08:01]
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Guest Bio: Kim Romain is a Life & Business Alchemist for visionaries, changemakers and paradigm shifters. With over 25 years of experience as an attorney, nonprofit executive, and artist, Kim is a catalyst for awakened leadership and creating a more just and equitable world from a place of centeredness and strategic alignment. As the founder of The Rising Visionaries and co-host of Kickass Career Conversations – now the Empowered and Embodied podcast, Kim fosters sustainable success and embodied leadership, inspiring purposeful action with ease, joy, and freedom. Important Links and Resources: Kim Romain Your Kickass Career Kim Romain - Life & Business Alchemist Related Episodes: Episode 46: Generous nonprofit leadership Episode 54: Best of nonprofit leadership transitions Episode 92: Three stages of nonprofit leadership Episode 100: 10 things I have learned from 100 episodes Click "Read More" for a transcript of the interview. Carol Hamilton: Welcome, Kim. Welcome to Mission Impact.
Kim Romain: thank you so much for having me. I'm really glad to be here. Carol: I start each episode with a question about what motivates people. So what would you say drew you to the work that you do? What would you describe as your why? Kim: I love this question. My why is the people and it's the people doing the work. Coming from being an attorney and then a nonprofit executive I was really tired of seeing amazing people do really impactful work and burning themselves out time and time and time again and not utilizing resources that are right there in front of them. The other people, right? And so my why is the people and making sure that people can do deeply impactful work without suffering. Carol: Well, that is 100 percent aligned with the tagline of this podcast of, you know, for, for nonprofit leaders to do good work in the world without being a martyr to the cause, because that's, that's the flip side of, of burnout and both, both of them definitely go, go together. But one of the aspects of your work is helping leadership teams, or sometimes they're called executive teams or in the for profit sector, often the C suite is not always referred to that way in the nonprofit sector, but what would you say is different about leadership teams versus other work teams within an organization? Kim: Yeah. I think it goes to what you were just talking about with the tagline, right? That, that we tend to particularly in the nonprofit sector as that leadership team, We take the weight of not only what the work we're doing, right? The organizational work we're doing, but all of the people that are part of the organization, we carry all of that weight and we martyr ourselves on their behalf, on behalf of the organization. And the team themselves. Don't always operate in a way that allows them to move the organization forward and to provide the impact that they are looking to make in the world in a way that serves, again, going back to what I said earlier with my why, that serves the individual. So that, that, that team is so important. To set the tone of the organization, to set the pace of the organization, to create the strategic plan for the impact that the organization is going to make. And if they're not operating together with some ease the whole organization goes out of whack. Carol: Yeah, I've actually worked with, or, you know, worked for executive teams where it was apparent from the outside that they were a team in name only that they really didn't necessarily, especially clients I'm working with, where you get in there and you can see, See how the, the group is, is, you know, either working well together with ease as you described or not. And oftentimes, you know, an, an, an, a leadership team is pulled together from the people who are at the top of departments. And so, off sometimes. Those teams can actually just be a collection of individuals who are representing, you know, their particular function, but not necessarily thinking about the organization as a whole effectively. Kim: Oh my gosh, a hundred percent. And I, there's, there's a team that I'm working with right now that is. In that predicament. So we have an executive director CEO who came into the role, a reluctant executive. We've met a few of those over the years. She came into this role and each of her leadership team members is a department head. And yet none of them came into their roles because they said, I want to lead, I know how to lead. I'm a good leader, nor do they have the natural inclination to work together as a team. They're very siloed in what they do. And I know. Even back when I was working in the nonprofit sector, we were very siloed in what we did. And as part of those leadership teams, we would come and it's like this reporting factory where everybody just reports out what's happening, but they're not functioning as a team. They're not, they're not coming together and looking at things for the organization. as you would want a leadership team to do. Yeah. It's, it is very much, I think that that's probably more the norm is that it just is this very siloed reporting function. Carol: If they were actually working as a team and leveraging the, the, the, you know, the opportunity that that brings, what would that look like? What would they be doing differently? Kim: It's sexy when it happens. I'll tell you that. So one of the amazing things that I've seen that has happened is They actually start leaning on each other. They're supporting each other in their challenges. So right, Department A has some, some program people in it that they're, maybe it's a little bit challenging and, and Department B has already worked out those challenges. They actually start sharing information and supporting one another and, and lightly mentoring each other, colleague to colleague. They're also able to then support each other. Support the executives. The executives can stay in that visionary and expansive space, right? They're not tied to putting out fires every day, which is very often what I've seen executives doing is they're going from team to team and putting out the different fires and solving the problems for the team leaders versus having this team come together and be able to lean on each other and support each other and share ideas with each other. And collaborate. I mean, and I didn't even get to like the visionary part of it yet, but just that part in itself is really sexy when it starts happening. Carol: absolutely. And I think for organizations to be able to shift out of the constant, you know, firefighting it's so, I mean, talk about something that will burn everyone out. it, it, and, and, you know, I'm a planner. I was, you know, that's why I do strategic planning. So, you know, I like to look ahead and think, how can we, how can we, you know, logically get from here to there. In most organizations where I've worked in my team where I had some control, I was able to get us out of that firefighting. Cause we'd start, you know, Looking ahead and trying to look, where are our pain points and how do we solve these things? But I think a big big one is to get a job as a boss. I certainly had to learn To not always be in the position of being the problem solver. Kim: Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's, yeah, it is. It's so interesting how we think as leaders, we have to have all the answers. And that our team functions, quote unquote, better when we give them the answers. And I find that to be actually the opposite of, of a really well functioning team. I don't know. What, what was your experience with your teams? Did you find it that giving, that being that advisor was, was helpful or stepping back a little and letting them be empowered to make those decisions and, and make the changes within their teams? Carol: Yeah. I think it was a combination of all those things. One, I had to, you know, let go of the idea that I needed to have all the answers, to give them space just, you know, ask questions and talk through the issue to, help people understand that expected them to, you know, do some work before they came to me with an issue and then tell me what they'd done. And so I don't, you know, so I'm not suggesting things that they've already tried, that's just frustrating. But I think, you know, realizing how different people work, that some people are external processors, and, you know, our one on one is really just about them, me listening to them externally processed, Kim: Yeah. Carol: half an hour, and they're going to get to the thing and we're all going to be, you know, in a better place by the end of it, or other folks who, you know, they, we, Probably spend less time in one on ones because they're very self directed and, and really appreciated that autonomy. So it's, it's, it's a lot of different things, but a lot of it was me unlearning and having to grow up and, and realize what my role actually was versus when I was an individual contributor and, you know, I was in charge of getting all the things done. Kim: Well, and what I hear there is, is an understanding of self, right? Yourself as the leader is understanding yourself and where you can step back where it might be beneficial if you step in and then allow the other members of the team. And this goes for, right? Leadership teams as a whole are understanding where the, the other leaders on the team can, where their strengths are, how they know themselves so that they know where they can pull forward, where they need to pull back, where they can step in, where they can share. But it all starts with self. It all starts with understanding ourselves. And I feel like because so often we're operating in these silos, particularly if we're talking about, right, the executive and then these department heads, when we're operating in these silos, we don't very often a. We don't even give any attention to ourselves because we're just focused on the work at hand. And B, we don't give a focus to each other. So it does start with self because we need to understand ourselves and what our needs are, what our desires are in that role for the organization, for our individual teams or our individual work. And then coming together and being able to collaborate through connection. with a whole bunch of other selves. That's really, that's how I like to picture it. It's like a bunch of little selves coming together. Carol: And, you know, what I described is, you know, me and the relationship with the, to each individual on my team. But then the other things that we were trying to do is, talk together about what team we wanted to be. I remember reading in graduate school, there was a book about teams that also made the point that not all teams are the same, know, some are a basketball team where there's a huge amount of inner, inner relationship and you have to, you know, you're constantly passing things off and others are a golf team where it's essentially a group of individuals and there's lots of different variations in between, but it was so helpful to understand that, I mean, depending on the, you know, for example, in college campus, a department you know, the chair of the department is leading a golf team. They're not leading a basketball team. so knowing what context you're in, I think is helpful, but I think you can really help, especially in a leadership team. I think you can't just be a golf team. That's, that's too, as we've described, it's a little bit too much. The, the, the model of, well, leave me alone and I'll leave you alone and we'll all get our work done and then, then we'll be good. But, the job of the leadership team is to be taking, you know, to be paying attention to the whole organization and you know, how it all works together. Kim: Well, and I think it, it depends on scale and size, right? Because if you are operating an organization that's the size of a university, you're going to have those different layers of leadership teams and rights. All of that. And. And when it comes down to who is responsible for actually moving the organization, regardless of size, who has that ultimate responsibility for moving the organization forward, in addition to the board of directors, because we know that's a whole other thing too, but internally. Who is that group of people? Who's at the table? Why are they at the table? What is their purpose? And again, going back to that place of self, it's making sure they understand why they're at the table, why they're taking part. And they're not just their leadership team. member by name, right? It's like, oh, department X, you're going to be part of this leadership team, but we're not going to actually tell you why. Going back to your question at the beginning, what is their reason? Why are they part of this team? Carol: Yeah, and I've seen, you know, talking about size and scales you know, often with, with, you know, most nonprofits are pretty small. And, you know, most probably don't even have staff and don't have a leadership team. Don't have any of these things. But as the organization grows and shifts from, you know, a small team that all works together to, you know, larger. And, and as it grows, those things start to differentiate. And I think one of the big shifts that I've seen is when, you know, to shift from an organization where everybody in the organization reports directly to the executive director to start, you know, culling that, pulling that apart and, and creating some, some something that makes a little more sense that is more, more. in terms of, you know, who's at, who actually needs to report directly to the executive director. And then, you know, what implications did that have in terms of know, that structure. Kim: Yeah. Again, allowing that space to be that visionary leader, right? Because when you're the ED, if you don't have the space to be the visionary leader, you're caught in these. Places within the organization that don't allow the organization again to grow, to create the sustainability that you're looking for. Carol: So what are some of the other challenges that you see with leadership teams? We've, we've talked about them, not, not acting as a team, not actually being a team. What are some of the other things that you've seen? Kim: Some of the other things that I've seen within non, non optimally functioning, Carol: Right. Kim: like how do I say this nicely, right? It is, there's competition. I've seen a lot of competition that shows up very often, you know, we hear that. The challenges between programming and administration, programming and advancement or development. And so, You see that play out on this micro level in a lot of leadership teams as to what's the most important thing that we're doing. And therefore there's a lot of jostling, a lot of sharp elbows, things that are not again, helping set the culture and tone of the organization. Let alone being in a, in a space of being the visionary leaders that the organization needs. But yeah, that's another one that I've seen quite, quite frequently. Carol: Yeah. So if they were how, how have you seen groups be able to shift out of that competitive mindset? Because as you said, you know, everyone's watching the leaders watching that's that they set the tone. They, you know, they're listening. Have so much influence on the culture. Certainly anyone at any level can influence organizational culture, but there's an oversized impact for folks on the leadership team. So, you know, they're in competition, then everybody else is in competition. And then, you know, other things that I've seen play out from that is like hoarding, or, you know, not, not wanting to share, you know, not being willing to admit you made a mistake, all those kinds of things. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. It's that pettiness that starts to settle in. And, and honestly, it's in the title of this, of this podcast, it's mission. It's returning them to mission every time they're coming in contact with each other, coming back to their individual why and their organizational why. Because when we, when we can use that as a compass, it allows us to see the importance of everybody. It allows us to understand that there is space for everybody at the table and without everybody at the table, we're not serving our constituents, the organization, the change we're looking to make, the impact we're looking to make. We're just not serving it by doing this. So by allowing ourselves to come back to mission, to our why, to the organizational why, that's where I see particularly when we, when I've. I've seen some pettiness and you know, pushing and pulling, particularly when the executive gets thrown into the middle of it and becomes like that tug of war rope, right? How do you help them all come back to consensus? I think it's a mission. Carol: Yeah, no, it's, it's one of the reasons that I asked the question at the beginning, because it really, it is fundamental and it's easy to forget to write when I'm, know, feeling unmotivated or I'm like, huh, why am I doing all this? I literally go back to that, answering that question. Okay. Why am I doing this? It's very grounding. Kim: Oh my gosh. So important. Some of the other things that I've seen with non optimally functioning leadership teams are, it really gets into. Retention. We start getting into the operational things. We see it not just at the leadership team level, that the turnover is. In fact, very frequently, it's not at that level that the turnover is, but there's a lot of turnover throughout the organization. We start to see a decline in constituent engagement. I mean, this, it, it is systemic. It starts to really bleed out. Yeah. Carol: Yeah. And why would you describe why you think that is where, where you know, it ends up leading to people leaving the organization or, you know, the organization not engaging and not, you know, listening to their constituents. What, what are some of the kind of, what's the, what gets us from here to Kim: Yeah. Carol: Mm Kim: think part of that reason, again, it goes with, with culture and tone, right. As leaders in the organization, even if you don't see yourself as part of the leadership team, people are watching and and, and, and. It can make people feel very uncomfortable. They're there to do a job. They're there to facilitate a mission. And if they see quote unquote bad behavior, if they see misaligned behavior it starts to feel uncomfortable as the staff member. They start to feel like they're not seen, heard, or understood. They start to not feel like they belong. It, it and I'm using a lot of feeling words here. Because it really is something that is felt throughout the organization. And then that's where that starts to bleed into our constituents, right? Whether it's our volunteers and our board members or the members that we're serving or the, the, whoever we're serving through the organization, those people start to feel. What has rolled downhill towards them. Right. And, and so then you have a whole bunch of people who are not feeling good. about taking part in whatever the organization is doing. It is, it's an energetic exchange, right? And it's part of, it starts with not part of, it starts with how well the leadership team is, is focused on their own energetic exchanges. If they're not very often, Right. That's playing out. And, and, and we're wondering, well, why, why don't we have any volunteers? We have board members, but they're not showing up at meetings. We have all of the things. Donations are down, Carol: Yeah. And, and, you know, as people are either explicitly in conflict or covertly in conflict, a lot of energy, you talked about energy exchange, there's a lot of energy that gets sucked up in all of that and it makes it harder to do all the other things well. despite the fact that, you know, you're, if you're cranky, people can tell you're cranky Kim: right? Carol: and they don't want to be around you and be part of your organization, but it also gets really distracting from the mission. Being able to work, you know, every organization's going to have conflict, you know, if people are working together, conflict is going to happen. So it's so important for folks to really build skills around being able to work through those things effectively. Kim: Yeah. I mean, it's not rainbows and unicorns. Unicorns all the time. It would be really great if it were really great. I mean, it would be lovely and having the tools necessary to look at what is causing the dis-ease in an organization. It can be really scary. Right? It can be really scary to look at. And so it's easier to point out and say, donations are down, do more of right? Volunteers aren't, aren't showing up, do more of right? Board members aren't engaged, find more board members, whatever it is, we're, but we're filling gaps and we're putting bandages on severed limbs. And for us to actually fix the limb, that has to go back up to the leadership team to really look at and say, where is the dis ease in the leadership team? Because if it's showing up elsewhere in the organization, it likely started there. Carol: Yeah. Kim: That's a really hard pill to swallow. And yet it also makes it so much easier to fix. Mm Carol: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, getting to that root cause Kim: hmm. A hundred percent. Carol: with all the symptoms. So we talked a little bit about you know, when organs, when teams are working well together can you, can you say a little bit more about that, what, what that looks like? We've talked about collaboration, being willing to help each other. What are, what are some other things that you've seen? When a team, you know, when a leadership team is really, you know, cooking with gas. No, Kim: able to focus on asking for those donations more easily. More people in the organization are willing to ask for them. Constituents for donations and, and other audience members for, for donations. You'll see volunteerism go up because people want to be involved with an organization that feels good doing the work, right? And I've seen this even with working with memberships that deal with incarcerated individuals. People who are dealing with death row, people who are dealing with addiction. I've seen people who show up in these organizations excited to do the work, very heavy work, because they, again, going back to what I said before, it's, they feel like they are seen, they're heard, they're understood, and they belong. And so. That you, all of those challenges, all of those problems that we're pointing to when we're saying that an organization isn't working or, right, again, like, are we sustainable? Are we able to be around? Do we have longevity? Then, the fears around those go away. Because everybody in the organization is able to come to this centering point. So not only does the leadership team operate. more effectively, more efficiently, right? You're also seeing that again, it's rolling downhill and you're seeing that throughout the organization. The, it's as though everybody is in the rowboat and there are like no paddles are being flung to the shore. Nobody's jumping out. Exactly. Like everybody's going together and, and they're singing together and everything feels good. That's when you like, that is absolutely an outcome. Of this. And even if you only have a three person leadership team or a 20 person leadership team. Right. Carol: team. Kim: Right. Right. Carol: Yeah. what can the executive director or co executive directors, what can, what can they do to start to cultivate essentially a healthier culture within the leadership team? Kim: Excuse me. I'm sorry. The best thing that they can do is start to see, I apologize again. I got super excited. The best thing that they can do is really start to see themselves. And. Be open to seeing themselves and where they're getting in the way of the team functioning as a team. So part of that is saying, am I in the weeds, right? Am I putting out all the fires? Am I taking on that responsibility? How am I showing up for the people who are part of this leadership team? Do they know why they're part of this leadership team? Have I empowered them? So it's really understanding the executive director or the co directors really starting to understand how they have already set up systems. That has created the functioning of the team, how it's functioning now. And then where do they want to start adjusting that and then empowering each member of the team to do the same and getting the support for each member of the team to do the same. That's where I would start. Carol: And you mentioned systems. And I think a lot of times when people hear that word, they think, Oh, some. Technology or some process that we're writing down, but it could be just, you know, how is the meeting structured? Do we have time to check in at the beginning and, and get a pulse on how people are walking into the meeting? Do we know anything about our colleagues? Do we have time for discussion or is it that, you know, long list of reports that you talked about? So, systems can mean a lot of different things, including all the basics, yeah, like all the practices and maybe ones that you haven't really thought about. In terms of how your, how your group functions. Kim: Yeah. And I think there, there's. There's a myriad of possibilities in which most of us think that there's only like two ways to do something or three ways to do something. Carol: hmm. Kim: It's being open to what is right for you and your team, right? And you were talking about internal versus external processors. There are, it's, it's. Again, it goes back to understanding yourself as a team lead, as a team member and a team lead to be able to say, this is what I need. I need to be in this space with my colleagues, but I'm not going to be able to process things quickly and give you a decision on the spot. Right? That's often one of the things that I see is, you'll have somebody who processes more slowly than the rest of the group. And by having an agreement with that group that everybody has an opportunity to process at their own speed. And that we will then, right, for major decisions that everybody needs to weigh in on, we'll wait until the next opportunity to get together. Or tomorrow there will be a poll sent out or whatever that, that thing is. So creating a system and process that actually works for your people and yourself, and you get to make it up. That's the cool part. Carol: Yeah. And I think going back to that whole martyr syndrome, oftentimes folks, you know, who there's definitely, I, I would say a correlation between people who overcommit and overdue and over all the things can't say no, and, and going into the nonprofit sector being called to, you know, a big, important work, like you're describing. And so you know, it can also be knowing yourself, but then. being able to understand what you need, what you need in this situation and actually being able and willing and feeling safe enough to ask for it. Kim: Yeah. That is a healthy organization. Carol: So I think for me, one of the big indicators is, is it a, what, how does, how does the organization handle mistakes Kim: Mm. Carol: Cause that's, I think a big contributor to how safe people feel. Know, are we, are we, Working through them, learning something from them, or are we just pretending that they didn't happen? Yeah. Kim: Yeah. And it's, it's more than language, right? I was on a team many, many, many years ago where the executive, her mantra was, this is a mistake making place. And yet the behavior was very different. Carol: It's the behavior. That's, that's, that's where the rubber Kim: Yeah. Carol: For sure. Kim: Yeah. So I think, right there, there is that wisdom and then the action that comes with the wisdom. Carol: Yeah. Well, at the end of every episode, I ask the question of what permission slip would you give nonprofit leaders or what would you invite them to consider as to avoid being a martyr to the cause and as they work towards building and cultivating a healthier organizational culture. Mm. Kim: So my invitation would be to not feel as though you need to have All of the answers all of the time to lean into the space of being the visionary leader that you're there to be by creating a culture and environment through your leadership team that supports all of you as individuals. There's three parts to that, but right. So it's, it's really being in that space. allows you to be the leader that you are there to be. And sometimes that means intentionally slowing things down a bit, which can be really scary, but it's okay. Carol: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Kim: Well, my pleasure. Thanks so much for all the work that you do and for having me as a guest. Carol: It was awesome. Appreciate it. Comments are closed.
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