Declining interest in Nonprofit Leadership with Danielle Marshall

In episode 98 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton hosts Danielle Marshall for another learning out loud episode where we do a deep dive into a topic. 

Today’s topic is leadership in the nonprofit sector, especially the declining interest in nonprofit leadership as highlighted by the "Push and Pull" report by the Building Movement Project.

​We explore the dual reactions of frustration and affirmation in response to the report, discuss the challenges and support needs of nonprofit leaders, particularly BIPOC leaders, and emphasize the importance of culturally relevant support, universal design, and sustainability in leadership roles.




​Episode Highlights
- [00:06:01] The "Push and Pull" report by the Building Movement Project, tracks the declining interest in nonprofit leadership roles, a persistent issue in the sector.

- [00:07:25] The importance of training, mentoring, and coaching, and reflects on her own experience of not knowing she could negotiate for executive coaching.
- [00:08:41] The added challenges faced by BIPOC leaders, including gaps in board and staff support and heightened expectations for rapid change.

- [00:010:54] The unrealistic expectations placed on nonprofit leaders and the renegotiation of work-life balance.
- [00:012:59] The additional pressure on BIPOC leaders who serve communities they identify with, dealing with systemic oppression and trauma patterns.
- [00:15:00] Rethinking Leadership Roles with culturally relevant support and universal design and its potential benefits for creating more inclusive and supportive leadership roles.
- [00:23:30] The trend of having co-executive directors. Potential and challenges. 
- [00:28:30] The challenge of always adding new expectations and the importance of focusing on sustainability.
- [00:31:01] The importance of boards and staff supporting executive directors in carving out time for development and peer support.

The conversation underscores the complexity of nonprofit leadership, the need for systemic changes to support leaders better, and the importance of culturally relevant and sustainable support systems to encourage more people to step into these critical roles.

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Guest Bio:
Danielle is an inclusive leader focused on strengthening collaboration among teams, leaders, and stakeholders to foster problem-solving, create solutions, and improve culture. She finds her inspiration in leading systemic change work that promotes equity and inclusion. 
Danielle founded Culture Principles in response to a persistent need to operationalize Racial Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion metrics, centering REDI goals and creating accountability systems. She supports clients through her Mapping Equity Framework focused on Unearthing Knowledge, Elevating Strategy, and Transforming Sustainability. She centers her work around organizational assessment, racial equity learning intensives, and the development of racial equity action plans. Understanding that each organization arrives at this work from different perspectives, she utilizes assessment in building a customized strategy for each unique partner. Previously Danielle served as a non-profit leader for 20+ years and today works on strategy development that enables nonprofits to achieve equitable mission-driven results. Danielle holds a Master's degree in Industrial-Organizational Psychology from Louisiana Tech University and draws on her background as an I/O psychologist in applying a racial equity lens to organizational policies, practices, and programs. She is a Certified Diversity Professional (CDP)/ Executive Coach (ACC).
During her playtime, you can find Danielle traveling, knitting, and kayaking in all 50 states.

Important Links and Resources:
The Push and Pull: Declining Interest in Nonprofit Leadership

Related Episodes:
E72: Exploring Passion Exploitation with Lauren Brownstein
E78: Renegotiating our relationship with work with Carol Hamilton
E92: Three stages of nonprofit leadership with Patton McDowell
E95: Building shared nonprofit leadership with Emily Taylor

Click "Read More" to view a transcript of the interview

Carol: Welcome Danielle. Welcome to mission impact. Welcome back to another learning out loud episode.
Danielle: Well, Carol, it's great to be back with you. Thank you for having me again.
Carol: So we're going to use a recent report to be our jumping off point for today's conversation. It's called the “Push and Pull: report: declining interest in nonprofit leadership. And it's by the Building Movement Project. They've been doing surveys around nonprofit leadership for quite a while and have seen a decrease in the number of people who are not yet in a leadership role expressing interest to move into one. And I know you said that you had a couple of reactions to the report, but I'm, I'm curious what at first jumped out at you.
Danielle: thanks for asking that question. I feel like I'm continuing my journey into the world of duality. Because in reading this report, I had two very strong reactions  off the top. And one was my frustration that some of these issues continue to persist over so many years.
And the second is, as a former ED myself it was affirming, because a lot of the things that they talk about in here, I felt were reflective of my own experiences, and certainly those of people I have spoken to even after I transitioned out of non profit leadership.
Carol: What were some of those things that particularly resonated with you?
Danielle: Sure. some of the things that they talked about was having appropriate levels of Of training and mentoring and even coaching and those were things that I will say I I didn't have completely removed from my world. But I feel like I had to be the advocate in many of those cases to get those resources did not necessarily have them provide it  away for me. And in time didn't even know I could ask for things, and one example that just came to mind Immediately came to me as I was reading that is I had talked to another executive director when I was working in an organization that had Executive directors over regions. And they had told me as they came into the organization that they had negotiated as part of their contract, executive coaching, and it had never, I'm an executive coach now. . And so I have a very different perspective on things that did not even occur to me at the time that I took the job, that was something that I could negotiate for.
And so like having those. Sort of misalignment of, like, understanding around what is possible, what was offered to this individual versus what was offered to me in that. I feel like I was negotiating around salary, not necessarily those additional supports, and so that's both a limitation, at least at that time on my part, but it was also a place where the organization could have very well stepped in and said, here's something else we have for you.
Carol: From this report and one other around BIPOC leadership and the, extra challenges that they're facing as they move into or are in positions of leadership especially around support. So in that report, there was a finding that it wasn't so much, and oftentimes BIPOC leaders would come in with more credentials, more education than their white predecessor. But it was those set that, that those Aspects of support of the board trusting in their leadership, the board cooperating and working with them instead of against them, the staff this very big gap between I think maybe a pent up aspiration on the staff that, “Oh, this person's finally going to deal with these issues that we've had for years and years.”
And then, That expectation that that be very rapid. So all those aspects of support were, there were definite gaps in that. And I think people looking up and seeing what the situation of leadership is, are, are looking to see the realities and thinking, I'm not, I'm not so sure that I want to take that on.
Danielle: Absolutely. And I think it's become increasingly challenging over the last couple of years. So we've gone through this period of the pandemic. the racial reckoning in this country, et cetera. And so some of the issues that we're dealing with feel bigger than they ever have before.
And I wonder what that means for anyone? Because one of the things is while they did highlight differences in, leadership aspirations between BIPOC people, and white folks. What I noticed and was very interesting to me is that there is a declining interest in leadership, period.
And so, as I'm looking at that, There is a question in your mind of why anyone would want to step into a space that is so challenging at this moment. There are always going to be certain people that aspire to that, but I can understand particularly at a time where so many of us are questioning, what that work life balance looks like, how do I care for myself in a more holistic manner?
Is this now the task that I want to take on, knowing that it is going to be challenging?
Carol: Well, and just the expectations that are built into that role that I think, in most cases are way beyond what actually should be reasonably expected of one person. And so then I, I think of, , a lot of people are not only you, they're just renegotiating their role, their relationship with work and what it means in their life and how much of it is it going to take up. And so then to look at those roles that are, that are really not set up to be sustainable. There have been people doing heroic things, being in them and keeping that going, but it's taking a toll on them and then it's making it so folks are like, , I'm not, I'm not. Sure. I want to step into that space that will require so much sacrifice on my part.
And for what, I'm not sure.
Danielle: Absolutely. And something else that occurred to me specifically as I was thinking about many BIPOC leaders that I have spoken to over the years is that there is the additional pressure of often catering to communities that you belong to. And so when you think about why nonprofits exist, usually there is some gap in services, in support that we are providing.
And when the community looks like you, they are from where you are from, et cetera there is this additional weight of those communities are often dealing with their own trauma patterns, ? They're often dealing with systemic oppression. That is leading to the outcomes that are present in that community.
And as someone who, even if you're not directly from that community, if you identify with that community, you're now carrying the weight of that as well. . There's this expectation. You want the organization to succeed, but even more so you want your people to succeed in that moment. And. You're not immune completely from systemic oppression and trauma patterns that are present for them.
And so you're literally carrying buckets and buckets of weight attached to you. And then people are like, well, why aren't you being as successful as you could? Why are you burning out so quickly?
Carol: Also go back to the the expectations from community and, identifying that, but I think it's, It's also expectations from staff, especially BIPOC staff, that, okay, this person's finally going to deal with those things and, things are going to change and, and the expectation that that, that change happened very rapidly, and I think that just heightened expectations, Just aren't realistic to be able to, it takes time for any of these things to change. And, no person is just gonna, wave a magic wand and have it all be good overnight.
Danielle: Again, to me, it comes back to these dualities and what we're actually asking of people because We will say on one hand That we want them to come in and have a period where they settle into the organization where they really assess the landscape and understand what's happening. And at the same time, there is this real pull and push at the same time happening for immediate change.
And so, at some point you have to back up and say, like, what does feel like the priority? Am I really understanding before I make changes, which I think is a logical way to handle this? We don't want to change the good in this process just because we come in and sort of wipe the slate clean.
But it's that constant tension between those polarities of, again, do I move quickly and not observe, or do I slow this process down and then risk staff being upset that we haven't moved fast enough?
Carol: And what things do you think could actually shift this in terms of people seeing a role that, that, that they would, that they would aspire to?
Danielle: I was thinking about it in the context of universal design. Particularly as I look at some of the data points and again, they delineate it between BIPOC leaders and, and white leaders at this moment, but what I'm trying to understand at a baseline is like what's leading to the decrease in interest period?
So, like, they started to do that work. I think we could still go deeper in understanding that. And then where the pain points that stand out in terms of we talked about training and support already like what's missing for people and I say people sort of holistically but even more so as we just aggregate this data and look at leaders of color, where are the greatest pain points for them, because when we talk about universal design, it's really a moment to step back and say who's the most marginalized identity in this moment.
And we want to design for those individuals because when we do that a rising tide lifts all boats. 
And so if we are able to put in better mentorship programs, more coaching, more training, more board support staff support All of the things if we're even transparent about what is needed so that you know Whoever it is, whether it's the board chair that helps with the hiring.
There's an outgoing ED, etc What are you leaving your staff with in terms of understanding? So if it was articulated upfront, this person is going to need a minimum of six months minimum to really just assess the landscape before they make any changes. If that is communicated and transparent, they may not love it.
But at least you were clear as opposed to putting it on the individual. I think a lot of these times these conversations happen between the board chair and the bed. I've had some of these myself where they're telling you, like, we don't want you to rush in. We have your back. We were going to support you, but it's never articulated to the staff.
And so there really is a misalignment between expectations between these two groups.
Carol: That's a great point. Because the staff may have been, just waiting. Perhaps somebody's retired. Perhaps, there was Whatever the reason that the transition happened, they may have been like, okay, now this new person is in here, we're going to be able to get some things done.
But I think your point is well taken that, to give people the time so that it isn't just a knee jerk or, or taking, what they saw worked in the last place that they worked and, just imposing it on a new situation that, that may not. May not fit. And so I love the idea of, of universal design that, and, and say a little bit more about that, about what, what, what that is and what that brings to the table.
Danielle: Universal design, we can almost take it back to the period of time where the Americans with Disabilities Act came out. And there were some conversations going on around people that utilized wheelchairs. And so if you think about sidewalks in any given community, we now know that sidewalks generally have curb cuts and so curb cuts are the little ramps that help you to get on and off the sidewalk easily.
And so when they were thinking about who is the most marginalized identity in this moment when it comes to utilizing our walkways. It was people that were in wheelchairs? They could not get up safely or down safely or without assistance from someone. And so that was really problematic in the community.
And they said, well, how do we design to make sure that they have access? In this moment to utilize the sidewalks fully. Well, they came across this idea of the curb cuts. And so as they implemented this when I say a rising tide lifts all boats Will automatically because of these curb cuts anyone who was in a wheelchair now had access to the sidewalk as did children. You know maybe they were toddlers just learning to walk.
This was a big step up for them. There were people riding bicycles, parents that were pushing strollers Maybe elderly people that were walking with a cane or a walker. All of a sudden, all of these people now had access to something in their community that has proven to be incredibly valuable. And so if we can think about what the biggest pain points are for the identity who is disproportionately disadvantaged in this moment, and we design for them, it is not to cut anyone out of the loop.
Everyone else benefits from these. Little changes that we make and sometimes big changes that we make, but nonetheless, we all get to benefit because we've now thought through what it might mean to have a stronger mentoring program, what it might mean to have a peer ED that you're working with or a co-executive director.
Like there are lots of different things that we can shape to meet the needs of the moment, which then have wonderful benefits for the full community.
Carol: I mean, as a bike rider, I definitely appreciate those curb cuts that mean that I don't have to stop, get off my bike. But, I am just able to go freely. And so that's a great example of how what might've been seen as an accommodation originally for one group of people is actually a benefit for, for many and many, many people.
And so, thinking about that same thing, if we were to do a thought experiment of what would be all the things that we would want to do, if we were able to create the ideal executive director role. What would be the things that we would put in place to ensure that person is really succeeding?
And I think it goes even before they're in the role of, because I think one of the big, one of the big gaps is around sponsorship. And you talked about advocating for yourself, but it can be even more powerful when you have someone who's advocating on your behalf. And so, formal mentorship is important.
Programs may start to set the stage for that possibility, but that can be a real gap for people. So connecting people to networks inside and outside of their organization and connecting them to people who can advocate on their behalf can be another piece to, to start building those stepping stones towards even thinking about leadership.
Danielle: I definitely appreciate that. And another thing that is occurring to me is, is certainly canvassing? We want to know for people that are interested, what would help you be and not even be successful, but also feel supported in this role. But I'd also want to talk to people who have been there already, because now that we have walked that path, there are certainly things looking back that I could have said, had I had access to this at an earlier stage in my career, or even as I entered the ED role.
Certain things would have looked different for me? My experience would have been different But something that is surfacing for me  now is also thinking about the type of support that we provide to Executives when they are in these roles and is it culturally relevant? Okay, and I will share just a brief story. 
I , at one time, had an executive coach and I'm going to share this with the understanding I do not blame this individual for what happened and they asked me during the course of our coaching session when did I feel like I lost my voice?
And it really took me aback when, when she said that to me because, and I was like, I haven't lost my voice. In my mind, my voice was stronger than it had ever been at that point in time. What was lost though was my interest in sharing it with people in the organization who I felt undervalued by.
Carol: Mm.
Danielle: So I sort of stepped back from that point because it feels like wasted breath in a way.
And I don't blame the coach because she did not have the cultural lens to understand the daily microaggressions that I experienced. What it felt like to be out dismissed because I showed up in a black female body. And so to that end, yes, you can provide support, but all support is not 
Danielle: And so how do we make sure that we're providing the support that is needed so that people are not only learning they're learning through training, they're getting skill development, they're getting an understanding of sort of the culture of the existing organization, but that you're also factoring in who is uniquely, who's the person that we're dealing with at the heart of this?
What are their norms, their values? Because oftentimes we ask people to show up in ways. That dismiss who they are at their core.
Carol: Mm. . . So certainly a lot of work, a lot of work can and needs to be done. But I think it's, all those supports that go around the role, but I think just rethinking the role itself and, and what we're actually expecting of people. Another, another thing that's happening is some organizations are experimenting with having two people having co-directors. What are you seeing in terms of that? And you think, do you see that as a help just different, or I'm curious about that.
Danielle: I am seeing an increase of that in a number of spaces. I also sat in a seat where I had a Co-ED for a bit. It was short lived. What I would say led to some of the successes we experienced is very early on we delineated the responsibility. Like what, what are you going to be in charge of? What am I going to be in charge of at the end of the day?
Who on the staff reports to each of us? You know it whatever it was if it's fundraising are you handling corporate and i'm going after grants Like we just really tried to make it very clear about what each of us was doing and I think a big piece of that is making sure that you have someone that you can work well with , because they're, they're still hard decisions to be made at the executive director level, regardless of whether you have support or not.
And so can you both see a common and shared vision in that moment and walk in alignment towards it. And then when there are wrinkles, because that's what we're talking about. That's what happens when we work with people, ? There are always wrinkles. How do you navigate that space? How do you come back to sort of a central point where you have the opportunity to make decisions that are going to be in the best interest of the organization and, quite frankly, both of you as people?
Because I really believe we have to operate from a people first perspective.
Carol:It does bring that some support, and then it also, as you said, it brings new wrinkles of really having to clarify, the roles who, what's going to be a joint decision, what's going to be a solo decision that it brings. That I think there's a little bit of a fantasy of, well, there's, now there's, there are four hands instead of two, so it's going to be easier, but there's also complication of coordination and, and working through that relationship, fostering that relationship, making sure that you're working well together, all of those kinds of things.
Danielle: And your point around four hands it'll be easier. That is one of the reasons I say people need to be really careful because what I found in my experience is that four hands mean double the work. So even though we parsed out what we were responsible for, it was not hard. Anyone to come along and say, okay, well, great, since there's two of you, let me just add this one additional thing.
And before you know it, this one thing has blossomed into four or five new things. And so your job, even as a co executive director, still feels like you're a solo person because you have so much more added to your plate. And in my case, what ended up happening is the person left the job before I did.
And so now, we're looking and we're trying to figure out how to fill this role. Do we fill this role? But in the meantime, there's a whole side of the executive sort of job description that is not happening because that was 
Carol: Your point about how things just get added on and added on. I feel like I had this conversation on an, on another podcast interview where we were talking about the role of artificial intelligence and people are saying the same thing of, Oh, it's going to save time. I'm like, , but that's just going to invite all the things that were on that back burner to come to the front burner. And it doesn't mean that you're actually working less. And so I just don't. It's really hard for me, even though I advocate for it to be like, to have workloads that are reasonable, structured jobs that one person can do and not expecting them to always be done. To be doing one and a half jobs and yet it seems so challenging for us to actually get out of that out of that mindset that you're always, if there's any space, you're adding new things and adding new expectations and new projects and new initiatives.
Danielle: I think more so even in the nonprofit space, because most of us that work for nonprofits really care about our mission. So we're like, Oh, I realized this will be a burden to add to this, but I care so much about the community. I care so much about the outcomes that I'm just gonna, we'll just take that off, .
Or the staff can take on one more thing. And before you know it, that one more thing again, has blossomed into overload. And so we really have to be much more thoughtful and intentional about defining out not only the roles, but what are the, even if you only got to choose three things all year that like, what are the three big initiatives, projects, et cetera, that would lead you to those goals.
Carol: That focus that's so, so hard to find because often not only you care about the mission, but so often organizations, they have this much capacity. They're, addressing this part, this small portion of the need and they see the need that actually is there.
And so there's so often a gap. And so, the expectation that if, there's anything more we can do, we're going to do it.
Danielle: I think it's, it's also about sustainability. I was watching the news this morning and this is not about nonprofits, but it's about the government and the city of Baltimore. They have gotten a large grant from, I believe, the pandemic relief. And they're trying to figure out how they are going to parse it out.
And some of the choices that have been made  now are to fund positions for organizations to help them grow and expand. And someone actually asked on the flip side of that today, they said, but how do we ensure that that gets to continue when this pool of money runs out? And I think, as I was listening to that, it relates so much more back to how we handle it.
Nonprofits in general, because I'm like, we, we often do that. We get a capacity building grant. We work on that. We hire new staff, but there really is no plan in the future for how we are going to continue to support that individual. And it's the same, I would say, even with what we've been talking about  now, like if you're going to have mentoring, coaching, sponsorship, all of these things, like what is the plan for sustainability over the long haul?
As opposed to, Oh, well, we got you a coach for your first year.
Carol: Because it’s the dosage, you're never going to be, it's all ok. Those needs to learn and grow are never going to go away. And so there can be periods where you're investing more intensely in your growth, in your leadership development, but there's going to be something to be continued.
New things will pop up, new challenges to work through. And and so that's where, for me, in my career, I’ve invested a lot in peer groups that I can tap into that on a more steady and regular cadence And, build relationships over time that I can then, ask for their, their feedback and their insight and their perspective on, on whatever challenge I'm facing. So it doesn't always have to be within professional structures or formal training structures and things like that.
Danielle: Absolutely. I refer to my group as my squad. Those are the people that I show up with that we learn together, that we brainstorm, problem solve, you name it. And they have been invaluable to me just as a brain trust in general. But one of the things that I realized I have the liberty of today that I might not have felt as strongly about as an executive director is I have the flexibility of 
Carol: . And so, as you think about even what support means in this greater context of what we're talking about today, like, how are boards, staff, whomever, supporting their executive director in carving out this time and space? I'm not saying that they have to be in charge of it, but like, are people understanding that this time for development, whether it be a formal training or a peer group or coaching, it needs to be present.
And it shouldn't be looked at as, Oh, this person has this additive thing that they're doing, but it's not their job. it is in support completely of them being effective in their 
Carol: . Exactly. Any last thoughts as we round this up?
Danielle: I would just say I'm really excited about the report overall. I am excited to see what other organizations might do in terms of taking this knowledge and, and really thinking about how to implement the learnings and the takeaways in their own work. Because I think they just really scratched the surface.
And while I did enjoy, quite frankly, what I was able to read and review, I think there's so much more to be. Deeply, we can go in this work
Carol: , to really look at I think to me, the report it kind of, it revealed the, the what maybe, but not so much the why of what's behind this hesitance. And, as you say, what, what are the pain points, what are the things that could be constructed to build a stronger on ramp and And beyond, beyond formal training programs, but which I think has, there's been a lot of attention to, although it's very there are lots of gaps and, and a lot of people aren't able to access those, but that's been the answer.
And so what might be the other things that, that could come to really support people as they, as they shift into these or to encourage them to
want to shift into the role?
Danielle: absolutely well, and part of it is, and I think you just hit on this  there. There's been a lot of support for training over the years. In general, but what feels like it's missing for me is what does it look like to apply that? And that's where those smaller cohorts or those, you know Other peer executive directors might be useful because now we've all gone through this training. What I really need to understand is what does that look like in your organization?
How are you applying it? What changes did you make? What did you keep and reinforce because you realized it was actually working well for you? Where we don't have time to apply things I think the training goes in one ear and out the 
other because there's just we lose it over time.
Carol: Absolutely. . So I've often ended up being the person at the end of a program, raising my hands and saying, if you want to stay in touch, I'm willing to host a zoom call once a month for us to talk about how we're actually applying what we've learned. And that pushes you to also. Look back at, well, what did we cover to come up to the call and, and have something to share? Well, I really appreciate our conversations every time. Thank you so much. And until next time.
Danielle: Thank you so much, Carol. Take care.